Star Wars General Discussion: Episode III

MrWhisper:

So the suck of movie production notwithstanding, it could possibly be argued that the training for lightsaber combat was existent and vibrant before the Jedi Purge thinned out the number of teachers. And that Luke only knew a minimal amount and was evenly matched against a half-crippled old man.

I accept this explanation because I have to, but it is still fishy as hell.

Vader was half-crippled? Sure. An old man? Not so much. Even the movies themselves show us an abundance of much older men fighting with every bit the vigour and skill of the young ones. And when one involves the EU, one has forfeited the movie purism angle, which means one must accept all of it to remain credible. In which case Vader, despite being alledgedly half-crippled and old, beats the snot out of countless Jedi in and around their prime. Also, this is the kid who grew to council-member levels of power (if not more) both in and out of saber combat, in just 14 years. One would think, that after 20 years in the suit, he would have found ways to compensate and grown immensely skilled to boot.

The only half-way redeeming explanations I can think of, is that during the duel on Death Star I, he was wounded badly, per Fightsaber (presumably from his run-in with Starkiller). On Bespin, Vader wasn't actually trying to kill Luke. On Death Star II, Luke had 4 years behind him in practical combat with that saber, and for a Skywalker, that ain't little. Especially of Ani's boast to Dooku that his powers had doubled in just the three years since their last encounter, was true. Still, even that is an iffy explanation, since Vader had 20 years in the suit, which should have more than overtaken Luke's measly four years.

Rise and Fall of Darth Vader confirms that V was trying his best to kill Luke on Death Star II, and that his damaged oxygen intake was hampering him greatly during such exertion. Not to mention that Luke destroyed his life-support. Still, I just can't come over the neglected 20 years. Vader should have become an undefeatable skill god, his speed be damned.

The only explanation that would truly redeem the OT Vader fights IMO, would be some admission that slow is as good as fast in a lightsaber duel, and that the PT Jedi-Fu would carry no advantages over the slow, powerful and steady of the OT. Preferrably a live-action example of such. Then the OT duels could be said to be every bit as demonstrative of skill and power as the PT ones, and the lack of Force use blamed on character choice. 

EDIT: Ok, there is one more explanation, but it is the one I hate most of all. Dramatic heroism. In SW, this is a legitimate and undeniable concept. People who do much more than they should be capable of, just for story purposes? Oh yes. See Ahsoka Tano, Commander Cody, Captain Rex, Han Solo and Order 66 for Lucas-level examples. Only problem is that Vader should be one of those heroes himself, not just Luke. But once you introduce such a concept into the equation, it is something a character can be robbed of for dramatic purposes too. What I'm saying is that Luke could have been the hero during the OT, while Vader lost his hero status when he became a bad guy. Hence, along with all of his other drawbacks, the big guy lost to an untrained kid with lotsa potential. Could be a simple as that...unfortunately.

Sorry to hi-jack..but...

Last night I watched the dvd Fanboys! Loved it! Great movie! In case you don't know, its about these 4 guys back in late 1998 who decide they will make a trip to Skywalker ranch and steal a print of Star Wars Episode 1 and watch it before its released. Its pretty funny, and filled with cameo's by former Star Wars actors and other celebs who like star wars(like Kevin Smith and Jason Mewes), plus the star wars references never end! It was great!


Anyway, I'll read a few posts back now and catch up. Sorry...

I'll second that Fanboys was awesome. I think I'm incapable of evaluating such a movie compared to other movies, but for what it was, I am hard pressed to see how it could have been better. The in-jokes just never stopped. Omigod how I laughed.

I need to watch it... even though I'm afraid I won't get 3/4th of the references

MrWhisper:

GhostSong:

But in Empire and Jedi, Luke and Vader duked it out without using the force to crush the support beams and hurl giant computers or other sci-fi set pieces at one another. They were just swordsmen with a few neat tricks they could do if they put their mind to it. If they concentrated.

Go to the prequels and it is a forceapalooza.

So the suck of movie production notwithstanding, it could possibly be argued that the training for lightsaber combat was existent and vibrant before the Jedi Purge thinned out the number of teachers. And that Luke only knew a minimal amount and was evenly matched against a half-crippled old man.

Reading this and DarthMRN's explination, there is a third option to consdier, even tho its worst option. Lucas couldn't do lightsaber battles in the OT like he could in the PT. In the prequels, he has access to CG and the like, but in the Originals, he didn't have that technology to use, so he had to keep it simple. Trust me, if Lucas could have done it in the original trilogy, I'm sure he would have.

Like I said, its a sucky explination, but its the real one. But, for an 'in universe' explination, any of the ones given would work just fine. Except for the crap The Force Unleashed. I hate shoe horning in elements like that after the fact.

MrWhisper:

Then again, I cannot believe I'm defending Lucas at any level. That bearded s.o.b. has a long history of making shit up as he goes along. Has from the very beginning. If you get a chance, you need to read the Secret History of Star Wars.

Yes, he does that alot. And I know this because I have been known to do it as well.

He likes to pretend he had it all mapped out from the begining, but he's full of it...

DarthMRN:

I'll second that Fanboys was awesome. I think I'm incapable of evaluating such a movie compared to other movies, but for what it was, I am hard pressed to see how it could have been better. The in-jokes just never stopped. Omigod how I laughed.

Glad you liked it too. I could really tell it was made by people who loved Star Wars.

I wasn't particularly happy with Episode III, but then I wasn't happy with the "Second Trilogy" anyway. I thought the acting was dry, half-acting and a dis-credit to the caliber of movies that should be coming out of this generation of Hollywood. It's bad when Hayden Christensen was better In a movie like Awake than in a high level, high budget film series like Star Wars.

I did think that the Lightsaber battles were pretty good, though.

I liked the Prequels. I just liked them on a different level(somewhat) then the Originals..

D3M1URG3:

It's bad when Hayden Christensen was better In a movie like Awake than in a high level, high budget film series like Star Wars.

That what kills me among Star Wars fans. They universally hate Hayden Christensen, calling his performance of Anakin "whiny", et al, forgetting that Lucas made even Ewan McGregor look patently ridiculous. As Harrison Ford told the Bearded One once about his dialogue: "You can write this crap, George, but you sure can't say it!"

He's an engineer at heart. Great with the tech, lousy when it comes to directing or writing.

MrWhisper:

He's an engineer at heart. Great with the tech, lousy when it comes to directing or writing.

Which is why I always thought with Episode 2 and 3 he needed different directors, like he did with the originals.

Mr Gone:

Which is why I always thought with Episode 2 and 3 he needed different directors, like he did with the originals.

I'd include Phantom Menace in that. Having rewatched that with a friend over the weekend who had never seen them, I'd forgotten just how juvenile and moronic (poop and fart jokes?) some of the scenes were. At the very minimum he should've made Anakin just a little older (12 years old even? Would've consolidated the Jedi Council's complaint that he was "too old to instruct", without having that undermined by all the little padawans in RoTS) and made the attack on the Federation control ship less Little Rascals-esque in its portrayal and more like Luke's run on the Death Star.

So much potential wasted in those films.

MrWhisper:

Mr Gone:

Which is why I always thought with Episode 2 and 3 he needed different directors, like he did with the originals.

I'd include Phantom Menace in that. Having rewatched that with a friend over the weekend who had never seen them, I'd forgotten just how juvenile and moronic (poop and fart jokes?) some of the scenes were. At the very minimum he should've made Anakin just a little older (12 years old even? Would've consolidated the Jedi Council's complaint that he was "too old to instruct", without having that undermined by all the little padawans in RoTS) and made the attack on the Federation control ship less Little Rascals-esque in its portrayal and more like Luke's run on the Death Star.

So much potential wasted in those films.

Just say for a sec, all the little padawans in ATOC were already well into their training, having been taken away to the Kedi Counsil at birth(or near it). They were saying Anakin was too old to start....

Just saying.

I will admit tho, that Phantom Meanace(as much as I still like it) could have cut down a TON. In fact, they could have merged episode 1 and 2 in to one movie, done a new episode 2 all about the clone wars, and then done episode 3(maybe a hair differently). But yea, Lucas not directin would have been perferrable.

Some of my biggest complaints stem from killing off an actor as capable as Liam Neeson In Episode I and not even giving him a "Ghost Cameo" in either II or III? C'mon now, a Yoda mention as a plot device was just tacky.

D3M1URG3:

Some of my biggest complaints stem from killing off an actor as capable as Liam Neeson In Episode I and not even giving him a "Ghost Cameo" in either II or III? C'mon now, a Yoda mention as a plot device was just tacky.

Much as I dug Qui Gon Jinn (the midi-chlorians claptrap notwithstanding), I'll never understand why Lucas didn't even watch his own damn films before doing Phantom Menace:

OBI WAN KENOBI: You will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me.

And by Yoda I mean Liam Neeson.

lol, very true. I guess in the mind of Lucas he ret-conned it to: "You will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me how to make cameos long after I'm dead."