Dragon: The Embers

Shock:

Speaking of which... we need to discuss the True Form.

I would love to help out with the True Form stuff, but i have only really come on board as of this thread, so if one of ya guys could give me a brief overview of what we're looking at when it comes to them transforming, like a small discriptive piece of fluff, then i would better be able to know what to draw upon for inspiration towards powers and the like. And also how are we setting up these powers? I hear talk of Aspects, so are you talking pulling diffrent ones out of the Changing Breeds\Werewolf stuff or are doing something more regimented like Disciplines? Thanks for your patience ahead of time if you decide to awnser this one.

Shock:

we are going to need to come up with some reason why people don't know about Dragons when they die leaving their big corpses..

I got such an easy fix for this one guys! Those that leave behind a big ass dead Dragon body are those that still have their Heart inside them. Those that revert to human are the ones that keep their Heart in their shrine\haven\lair thingee. This could be a good excuse to slap some bonuses and minuses to having the Heart with you or off you. For instance, maybe you can manifest your powers a bit faster if you have your Heart in you, but you get the Dragons' vulnerbility to that one tiny spot that can cause Agg. wounds (like the Dragon in Dragonslayer), plus if you die... big ass corpse pieces that quickly fossilize and leave Hunters claiming crazy things, but the evidence only suggests really old dead dino-like bones. While having the Heart outside you gives you that human corpse effect... which is good for the general population of Dragons, plus you don't have the crazy vulnerability to that one called shot area. But your powers manifest a bit slower due to lack of direct connection.
Too crazy? Not crazy enough? What do you all think?

Lostkith:

Shock:

Speaking of which... we need to discuss the True Form.

I would love to help out with the True Form stuff, but i have only really come on board as of this thread, so if one of ya guys could give me a brief overview of what we're looking at when it comes to them transforming, like a small discriptive piece of fluff, then i would better be able to know what to draw upon for inspiration towards powers and the like. And also how are we setting up these powers? I hear talk of Aspects, so are you talking pulling diffrent ones out of the Changing Breeds\Werewolf stuff or are doing something more regimented like Disciplines? Thanks for your patience ahead of time if you decide to awnser this one.

well, the way we are talking about Aspects is that a Dragon slowly changes into it's True Form by bring a part of their draconic features one turn at a time. they can't automatically change into their True Form like as fast as a Werewolf (who can change in less than a min) but they instead select what feature they want to pull out on the next turn. the end result is that the True Form is quite powerful but it takes some time to get there. hence the reasoning that Dragons are like trains. slow to start up but once they get moving...

Lostkith:

Shock:

we are going to need to come up with some reason why people don't know about Dragons when they die leaving their big corpses..

I got such an easy fix for this one guys! Those that leave behind a big ass dead Dragon body are those that still have their Heart inside them. Those that revert to human are the ones that keep their Heart in their shrine\haven\lair thingee. This could be a good excuse to slap some bonuses and minuses to having the Heart with you or off you. For instance, maybe you can manifest your powers a bit faster if you have your Heart in you, but you get the Dragons' vulnerbility to that one tiny spot that can cause Agg. wounds (like the Dragon in Dragonslayer), plus if you die... big ass corpse pieces that quickly fossilize and leave Hunters claiming crazy things, but the evidence only suggests really old dead dino-like bones. While having the Heart outside you gives you that human corpse effect... which is good for the general population of Dragons, plus you don't have the crazy vulnerability to that one called shot area. But your powers manifest a bit slower due to lack of direct connection.
Too crazy? Not crazy enough? What do you all think?

sounds good on the whole Dragon corpse=Dragon that still has his heart inside him and Human Corpse=Dragon with Heart somewhere else.

i haven't really thought about the advantage of having the Heart stay inside you, i'll think on that idea.

as for the "weak underbelly" thing...i think we should save that for the playtest. if the players are too strong, we might implement that to keep them in check.

Lostkith:

I would love to help out with the True Form stuff, but i have only really come on board as of this thread, so if one of ya guys could give me a brief overview of what we're looking at when it comes to them transforming, like a small discriptive piece of fluff, then i would better be able to know what to draw upon for inspiration towards powers and the like. And also how are we setting up these powers? I hear talk of Aspects, so are you talking pulling diffrent ones out of the Changing Breeds\Werewolf stuff or are doing something more regimented like Disciplines? Thanks for your patience ahead of time if you decide to awnser this one.

Aspects on the White Wolf Wiki

We're not using the Changing Breed aspects (As far as I know), it was just a fluke that they ended up being called the same thing.

A dragon assumes a number of aspect dots each round equal to her furnace rating (So a dragon with furnace 6 can assume up to 6 aspect dots in a turn).  As for the aspects themselves, they are straight-scaling traits with a particular function or benefit.  Owning dots and activating dots in aspects are two different things, though... even if a Dragon has 5 dots of Scales, she gets no benefit from them unless they're active.  Also, the Dragon doesn't have to pump an aspect up to full on a single turn.  She may evenly distribute dots to several aspects until they're all full.



Remain form depending on whether or not the heart is in chest is perfect for this system, that's going on the wiki right away.



@Shock:  My concern with the True form thing was mainly the Inferno aspect, being that the dots are deactivated after one shot.  I suppose we could just make an exception for that aspect when it comes to True Form.
More complex dragons would have farther to go to reach True Form, but that's the drawback of having more aspects.

CJC:

@Shock:  My concern with the True form thing was mainly the Inferno aspect, being that the dots are deactivated after one shot.  I suppose we could just make an exception for that aspect when it comes to True Form.
More complex dragons would have farther to go to reach True Form, but that's the drawback of having more aspects.

well i kinda viewed that Aspect as the aspect it's self allows the dragon to have the "equipment" to breath fire but to actually do it, he would need to use Breath.

how much is needed per shot (or how much damage it does per shot) is up for debate.

Somebody was concerned about being able to shoot flames so consistently (I can't remember who it was), so Gepetto suggested that Inferno deactivate after each use (Like a philosophy).


The mechanics as I remember them were as follows:

Having active dots in Inferno grants the dragon a ranged fire-lethal attack (Stamina + Firearms + Inferno) that costs 1 Breath.  But using that ranged attack deactivates all the dots of Inferno the dragon has manifested.
So a dragon could activate 3 dots of Inferno and then spend 1 point of Breath to shoot off a fireball.  But, after that, the dragon does not remain at 3 active dots of Inferno, she falls back to 0 active dots.  This was to slow down the Dragon's blasts, or make each shot have less punch.

This makes Inferno entirely unique (Before both Inferno and Wings were unique as the only aspects requiring breath, but now Inferno has another trait exclusive from Wings) in that the aspect dots rarely remain active for long.
So we can solve the True Form problem by making an exception for Inferno.


Speaking of True Form:

True Form (Culmination of All Aspects)
A dragon wearing her divine flesh reaps two benefits:  firstly she gets a +1 bonus to all of her attributes, and secondly she gains another point of size.  This raises Defense by 1, Willpower by 2, and Health by 2.




On another note, I'm thinking "Consumption of Flesh" should become a sect, though I haven't really worked through that thought much.  That'd open up room for another aspect.  And speaking of which, that's the last actual mechanic we have to cover (Sects), opening us up to more setting work (And possibly some combat tests).

CJC:

the mechanics as I remember them were as follows:

Having active dots in Inferno grants the dragon a ranged fire-lethal attack (Stamina + Firearms + Inferno) that costs 1 Breath.  But using that ranged attack deactivates all the dots of Inferno the dragon has manifested.
So a dragon could activate 3 dots of Inferno and then spend 1 point of Breath to shoot off a fireball.  But, after that, the dragon does not remain at 3 active dots of Inferno, she falls back to 0 active dots.  This was to slow down the Dragon's blasts, or make each shot have less punch.

This makes Inferno entirely unique (Before both Inferno and Wings were unique as the only aspects requiring breath, but now Inferno has another trait exclusive from Wings) in that the aspect dots rarely remain active for long.
So we can solve the True Form problem by making an exception for Inferno.

alright (im guessing this is done for crossover balance due to the fire weakness that Vampires and Prometheans have), here are my thoughts.

having to restart the Aspect every time a Dragon uses it for a turn seems a bit harsh to me.

we could change it so that the dots represent a turn a Dragon can use the Aspect (either continuously or in fireball like "shots") and each requires Breath to activate. after all the "shots" are done, the Dragon then can start spending turns to get the Aspect again.

if you still don't like it, we could make the activation cost 2 per "shot" instead of one or more.



 

CJC:

Speaking of True Form:

True Form (Culmination of All Aspects)
A dragon wearing her divine flesh reaps two benefits:  firstly she gets a +1 bonus to all of her attributes, and secondly she gains another point of size.  This raises Defense by 1, Willpower by 2, and Health by 2.

well, i wanted a bit more power but i'll reserve that judgment after the playtest (im making a list).

CJC:

On another note, I'm thinking "Consumption of Flesh" should become a sect, though I haven't really worked through that thought much.  That'd open up room for another aspect.  And speaking of which, that's the last actual mechanic we have to cover (Sects), opening us up to more setting work (And possibly some combat tests).

cool, (im guessing your going with a human eating Sect). i'll get to work that last physical Aspect and see if i can get some Sects down while i am at it.

Right now i'm taking the time to read through your lists of Aspects and such to get a handle on where you guys are coming from in regards of how your wanting to handle such powers. When i'm done i'll be sure to throw what ideas i have into the mix. But i don't want to suggest things that are redundant or have already been covered, so i'm going to be awhile.
To sum up, i'll holla back at ya'll in a few days here.

P.S.- I really love the True Form Culmination idea you got going, does seem to make whatever Dragon that gets to that point, no matter how many or few Aspects they have, something to really stand back and go.... whoa! And with Dragons, i think that's exactly what you want.
As for my opinion on Inferno, i see the appeal of having to amp it back up full or partial to use it again, but i would actually side with Shock on this one and make Inferno more expensive to use, than restricting it. My reasoning is this... It's a Stamina+Firearms+Inferno thing, this means all a Dragon has to do is spend one point on this Aspect and they potentailly can already do Lethal damage at range with a minimum dice pool of 2, and let's be reasonable anyone who takes this Aspect is going to have more junk in their trunk and boost both Firearms and Stamina to give themselves a better chance to blast stuff\people. So i know it feels right to slow them down in using this power, but i think that what really slows a person down when gaming a creature like this is using their precious magical energy. You crank the cost of each shot up to even 2 Breath per shot and that means that your not only having the PC spend their precious resources, but that only more powerful Dragons (those with sufficently high Furnace) are going to be able to shoot it off faster.
So there ya go.
Later all.

Sorry for the lag in reply, had a really busy day.

Yeah, the two breath per shot thing sounds reasonable enough (Low level dragons would have to take two turns to use Inferno, but that's okay) to slow down its use without disabling the aspect dots.  That fixes the true form problem as well.


I have to warn you Lostkith that the aspects on the wiki haven't really been balanced, a lot of them were only at the brainstorming phase when the first wind of production gave out.  We'll have to go down the line and flesh them out, so feel free to give as much input as you please towards that matter.

Will do! Bwahhahaha!
Er, i mean, i will do my humble best. Heh.

I've started my examination of the Aspects and i have combed over them with a fine toothed comb. I have worked my way up to the Slayer Aspects and the following is a list touching on each Aspect and how i think it can be better molded to work for the PC's. I have to first off say that i found the lists very easy to read with a vast amount of varied and imaginitive powers, so kudos to you guys who labored on these for so very long. I hope you find my suggestions useful and not a challenge to the great body of work that has come before.

Additional Legs= I see no reason to change or improve this one, good the way it is.
Scales= I don't think that this was given it's fair shake, Dragon's scales are LEGENDARY when it comes to stoping anything from hurting them. Thus i propose that for each dot in this Aspect, the Dragon recieve an Armor Rating of 1/1, maxing out at 4/4. At the fifth dot Scales should grant the "Bulletproof" effect thus making every part of the Dragon's body a living tank, nearly impregnable against any weapon.
Enlarged Form= The name is obvious, and i would love to see it changed to Colossal Beast, or somthing more poetic like that, but besides my asthetics this Aspect is perfect the way it is.
Inferno= Other than the 2 Breath per shot thing, which we already covered, i think that this Aspect is also great the way it is.
Keen-Eyed= This is an awesome Aspect, but i see you wanted to give it a drawback of sorts. I have two thoughts on this. #1: Reduce the bonus to the number of dots in the aspect, thus eliminating the "feels unbalanced" deal. Or #2:Have sudden overwhelming sensory input force the Dragon to roll Stamina Reflexively or be stunned for as many turns as dots in this Aspect, which to me sounds like the more fun and dramatic thing to do.
Natural Weaponry= Hmm, here i got a bit funny. Makes sense to me that all proper dragons should be equipped with a tail already. Now wether that tail is truly helpful, or just kind of hangs or drags behind them should be up to the Player. I only mention this here because i was thinking of just giving a flat rate bonus to all Natural Weaponry Aspects and have the dots in the Aspect represent the buying of diffrent natural weapons. One of these natural weapons is a tail weapon of sorts, thus the already having a tail thing. Now i have to note that i am keeping in mind the Whipping Tail Aspect found later on, but see no conflict, the Whipping Tail Aspect could easily reflect that the Dragon has had the time and practice to use it's tail for more than swatting flys (like big dumb cows), or putting a ribbon on it to make it look pretty (like my favorite bud Eyor from Winne dah Pooh.).
So any way...
 I was thinking of either a progression rate where they buy each part seperately or of letting the Player choose which Natural Weapons they wanted with a bonus at 5. For example here is what i envision the Proggressive chart to look like- #1: Claws, #2: Fangs\Maw, #3: Horns, #4: Tail Spike\Razor, #5: The previous Weapons can now do Aggravated damage.
For an example of letting the Players choose, I would give the above 4 Nat. Weapons on a list and let the Player pick which order they buy them in, but then the catch (not Changeling style) would be that they need to eventually buy all four Aspects of Nat. Weaponry before they get the sweet 5th dot for Aggravated damage.
Alternately...
You could even manipulate the Aspect in a way where the Player would have to buy an invisible 5th dot for each Nat. Weapon to allow it to do Agg. damage. Thus in the write up it would look like a 1-4 dot Aspect with the 5th dot labeled as "special". 
As for the Flat Bonus for all Natural Weaponry... let's face it Dragons are scary mo-fo's who's Nat. Wep. should make every other super crap themselves rather than face them, but then we gotta think game balance and not have the Dragons be able to slice\bite\ram\swat everthing to death in one hit. My balanced solution is a flat rate of (+2 L) to all Natural Weaponry attacks. If your looking for a bit more game balance, you could always have an activation cost for turning on Agg. for either all, or one of the Natural Weapons that the Dragon possesses. (That's kinda in keeping with the vamps Claws and the Were's gift)
*whew* ok... next....
Wings= Absolutely loved it as written up. Don't change a thing.
Smoothing Incense= Well, it's obviously spelled wrong and should be Soothing Incense. If it was intended as that, oops. But i think it should be my way, and here's why... It seems overpowered the way it's written. A standard +1 to all Social rolls is really insane, especially when i looked farther down the list and saw we had other Aspects that gave bonuses to other Social skills. So i would give it a bit of a tweak and add it as part of the family of Socail Skill modifier powers that Dragon's can access. This is what i would do here...
Soothing Incense= +1\per dot to all Socialize and Persuasion rolls as it puts others at ease.
Forked Tongue= +1\per dot to all Subterfuge and Expression rolls as PC is granted in edge in speaking and lying.
Reptillian Fear= +1\per dot to all Intimidation and Animal Ken rolls as the Dragon puts down it's authority over all creatures.
Fire Skin= Ah, i love this one! Stoking ones inner Furnace to the point where it can burn others is awesome! Only thing i would do is make the damage lethal and slap on a 1 Breath cost. Now that i write that, i guess it would be just fine as Bashing damage, but if the Dragon wants to burn some Breath, as an alternative, they could cause the damage to be Lethal for 1Breath\turn. Yeah, that's sounds pretty sweet.
Water Breathing= Can't change or alter or play with this one at all! It's good as is.
Serpentine Form= Interesting.... kinda creepy they still keep their withered limbs in this write up... yeesh! If it were me, i would just say "Goodbye Limbs!" This cuts out all the guess work about using weapons and manipulating stuff with this Aspect on, and get's to the heart of this power which is allowing the Dragon access to places they normally can't. The mechanics part that covered the use of the Aspect was great as written.
Whipping Tail= Here's what i'm thinking, instead of creating a tail it allows greater expertise with ones' tail. I would say it allows a +1 per 2 dots (rounded up) to all Brawl and Athletics rolls. And it wouldn't neccesicarily just be for just balance when it comes to the Athletics rolls, for i can see Dragon's using their tails as extra leverage\grabbing stuff in climbing, or as extra pushing\spring-like when it comes to jumping, etc., etc. Obviously not great for throwing things, but ya got to draw the line somewhere i guess. And obviously it's Brawl bonus only gets applied when it specifically uses it's tail in combat, thus giving them increased incentive to buy Nat. Weaponry for the tail.
Wall Climber= Only thing i got for this one is tweaking the speed of travel to (Speed+Wall Climber dots), otherwise i likes!

That's all the General Aspects, i'll tackle the other ones one at a time as i go. As one last parting shot, i see some of these Aspects having an obvious physical tell to them, while others the PC could use while still looking entirely human. I would suggest in the final write up when you have the diffrent descripters for the Aspects (i.e.-Duration, Activation, Cost), that you also have one called Tell or Obvious which can then be awnsered yes or no for each then.
 Looking back on my suggestions, i see the tail thing is pretty tricky, but still works. Just imagine, if you will, that the tail is a "given" but doesn't really reveal itself until the Dragon does one (or more) of a few things... takes it's True Form, Enacts Natural Weaponry, or assumes the Whipping Tail.
Meanwhile i love the look of such Aspects in my head like Fire Skin where you see a burning glow pulse from within the chest of the Dragon and quickly turn the whole of the Dragon's skin into a deep, glowing hue of red. And if they bump it up to Lethal damage seeing the clothes start to ignite and smoke. While another image that leaps out at me is when the Dragon uses Inferno, seeing the buildup of a bright burning light in the throat of the Dragon and the suprise on some poor saps' face as they get a face full of burning! Ahh. I truly have fallen in love with the idea of this game gentlemen and women.
Now about a character sheet.... think Mr. Gone would be able to help us out? Or are any of you just as suprisingly proficient with the mysteries of the character sheet?

Looking forward to hearing from you all soon.
Later.

Additional Leg: Each additional leg possessed grants a +1 Strength when defending against attempts to overpower the character in a grapple attack. The Dragon also adds +1 to his Speed per leg, and a character with two extra legs (for a total of four) gains a +1 Defense.

Lostkith:

Scales= I don't think that this was given it's fair shake, Dragon's scales are LEGENDARY when it comes to stoping anything from hurting them. Thus i propose that for each dot in this Aspect, the Dragon recieve an Armor Rating of 1/1, maxing out at 4/4. At the fifth dot Scales should grant the "Bulletproof" effect thus making every part of the Dragon's body a living tank, nearly impregnable against any weapon.

That's actually how it used to work before I nerfed it.  While reading through the werewolf book, I found out that their toughest  indestructable form (Acquired through a gift and with a very short duration) only had a natural armor of 3/2 (Or 4/3, but I think it was 3/2).  Seeing as dragons can keep Scales on indefinitely once it's active, I figured it needed to have a lower value.

...I suppose that since Dragons wouldn't be able to maintain clothed armor for long (What with the size increase and the incinerating furnace and all that), it would be okay for them to have such a large natural armor value.  I will restore the former rules.

Lostkith:

Keen-Eyed= This is an awesome Aspect, but i see you wanted to give it a drawback of sorts. I have two thoughts on this. #1: Reduce the bonus to the number of dots in the aspect, thus eliminating the "feels unbalanced" deal. Or #2:Have sudden overwhelming sensory input force the Dragon to roll Stamina Reflexively or be stunned for as many turns as dots in this Aspect, which to me sounds like the more fun and dramatic thing to do.

Why not both?  Heh heh heh.  I think I'll attach the Red Iris to this aspect as well, so there's a (subtle) sign that it's active.

Lostkith:

Natural Weaponry= Hmm, here i got a bit funny. Makes sense to me that all proper dragons should be equipped with a tail already. Now wether that tail is truly helpful, or just kind of hangs or drags behind them should be up to the Player. I only mention this here because i was thinking of just giving a flat rate bonus to all Natural Weaponry Aspects and have the dots in the Aspect represent the buying of diffrent natural weapons. One of these natural weapons is a tail weapon of sorts, thus the already having a tail thing. Now i have to note that i am keeping in mind the Whipping Tail Aspect found later on, but see no conflict, the Whipping Tail Aspect could easily reflect that the Dragon has had the time and practice to use it's tail for more than swatting flys (like big dumb cows), or putting a ribbon on it to make it look pretty (like my favorite bud Eyor from Winne dah Pooh.).
So any way...
 I was thinking of either a progression rate where they buy each part seperately or of letting the Player choose which Natural Weapons they wanted with a bonus at 5. For example here is what i envision the Proggressive chart to look like- #1: Claws, #2: Fangs\Maw, #3: Horns, #4: Tail Spike\Razor, #5: The previous Weapons can now do Aggravated damage.
For an example of letting the Players choose, I would give the above 4 Nat. Weapons on a list and let the Player pick which order they buy them in, but then the catch (not Changeling style) would be that they need to eventually buy all four Aspects of Nat. Weaponry before they get the sweet 5th dot for Aggravated damage.
Alternately...
You could even manipulate the Aspect in a way where the Player would have to buy an invisible 5th dot for each Nat. Weapon to allow it to do Agg. damage. Thus in the write up it would look like a 1-4 dot Aspect with the 5th dot labeled as "special". 
As for the Flat Bonus for all Natural Weaponry... let's face it Dragons are scary mo-fo's who's Nat. Wep. should make every other super crap themselves rather than face them, but then we gotta think game balance and not have the Dragons be able to slice\bite\ram\swat everthing to death in one hit. My balanced solution is a flat rate of (+2 L) to all Natural Weaponry attacks. If your looking for a bit more game balance, you could always have an activation cost for turning on Agg. for either all, or one of the Natural Weapons that the Dragon possesses. (That's kinda in keeping with the vamps Claws and the Were's gift)
*whew* ok... next....

Yeah, the dragon gets a tail as soon as they assume a tail-based aspect (Such as natural weaponry).  The tail would only do bashing unless the dragon has taken the tail spikes aspect, which is rolled into this aspect now.

My initial confusion with natural weaponry was the notion that it would be taken multiple times (The dragon would have several versions of the Natural Weaponry stat, each associated with a particular body part [Horns 3, Claws 5, etc.]).  You've fixed that problem with this sugggestion, and for that I'm very grateful.

We'd let it do Agg for all of them, just to keep min-maxers from just clawing every time (Or ramming, or whatever).

...So you're saying all the natural weaponry would do +2 Lethal, regardless of which dot it's associated with?  Should we include a new fighting style (Dragon Limb Brawl) that lets them use multiple body parts in a single attack?

Lostkith:

Smoothing Incense= Well, it's obviously spelled wrong and should be Soothing Incense. If it was intended as that, oops. But i think it should be my way, and here's why... It seems overpowered the way it's written. A standard +1 to all Social rolls is really insane, especially when i looked farther down the list and saw we had other Aspects that gave bonuses to other Social skills. So i would give it a bit of a tweak and add it as part of the family of Socail Skill modifier powers that Dragon's can access. This is what i would do here...
Soothing Incense= +1\per dot to all Socialize and Persuasion rolls as it puts others at ease.
Forked Tongue= +1\per dot to all Subterfuge and Expression rolls as PC is granted in edge in speaking and lying.
Reptillian Fear= +1\per dot to all Intimidation and Animal Ken rolls as the Dragon puts down it's authority over all creatures.

I think Shock wanted to call it Smoothing Incense because it 'smooths over' a social situation, but Soothing works just as well.  I'll update the wiki.

We should make these alternate bonus odd and even, so that the bonuses don't get too ridiculous.   So for Soothing Incense, it would be +1 to Socialize per odd dot, and +1 to Persuasion per even dot.  Likewise, Forked Tongue would increase Subterfuge on odds and Expression on evens, and Reptillian Fear would do the same for Intimidaation and Animal Ken.

Lostkith:

Whipping Tail= Here's what i'm thinking, instead of creating a tail it allows greater expertise with ones' tail. I would say it allows a +1 per 2 dots (rounded up) to all Brawl and Athletics rolls. And it wouldn't neccesicarily just be for just balance when it comes to the Athletics rolls, for i can see Dragon's using their tails as extra leverage\grabbing stuff in climbing, or as extra pushing\spring-like when it comes to jumping, etc., etc. Obviously not great for throwing things, but ya got to draw the line somewhere i guess. And obviously it's Brawl bonus only gets applied when it specifically uses it's tail in combat, thus giving them increased incentive to buy Nat. Weaponry for the tail.

How about alternating between Brawl and Athletics bonuses?  Like +1 to athletics for each odd-numbered dot, and +1 to brawl for each even-numbered dot.
I don't know if we should limit the Brawl bonus to just tail-based attacks, though.  The tail would grant an additional degree of balance for the quickly enlarging dragon, so it brings a degree of grace to attacks that justifies the general bonus.

Lostkith:

Serpentine Form= Interesting.... kinda creepy they still keep their withered limbs in this write up... yeesh! If it were me, i would just say "Goodbye Limbs!" This cuts out all the guess work about using weapons and manipulating stuff with this Aspect on, and get's to the heart of this power which is allowing the Dragon access to places they normally can't. The mechanics part that covered the use of the Aspect was great as written.

Ah, but that would render the "Additional Legs" aspect completely moot for Serpentine Dragons (Who would need both active to access True Form).
I tacked on the withered limbs rules to Serpentine Form to make sure that both aspects had an effect when used together.  I was actually picturing a Chinese serpent dragon with its tiny legs.  They aren't technically attrophied, but they are certainly not impressive.


I suppose we could make weapons impossible to use while the aspect is active, but we still need the extra limbs to appear when the dragon is using both Additional Legs and Serpentine Form.

Zombiewulf2:

Additional Leg: Each additional leg possessed grants a +1 Strength when defending against attempts to overpower the character in a grapple attack. The Dragon also adds +1 to his Speed per leg, and a character with two extra legs (for a total of four) gains a +1 Defense.

YES!  1000% yes, I hadn't even thought of that!  The bonus should apply to the dragon's own attempts at overpowering as well.

Lostkith:

Keen-Eyed= This is an awesome Aspect, but i see you wanted to give it a drawback of sorts. I have two thoughts on this. #1: Reduce the bonus to the number of dots in the aspect, thus eliminating the "feels unbalanced" deal. Or #2:Have sudden overwhelming sensory input force the Dragon to roll Stamina Reflexively or be stunned for as many turns as dots in this Aspect, which to me sounds like the more fun and dramatic thing to do.

im thinking the first one. it's more fun from a ST's perceptive if we do number 2 but then why would the player active an aspect that he rolls just one attribute pool to keep from loosing a lot of turns?

Lostkith:

Natural Weaponry= Hmm, here i got a bit funny. Makes sense to me that all proper dragons should be equipped with a tail already. Now wether that tail is truly helpful, or just kind of hangs or drags behind them should be up to the Player. I only mention this here because i was thinking of just giving a flat rate bonus to all Natural Weaponry Aspects and have the dots in the Aspect represent the buying of diffrent natural weapons. One of these natural weapons is a tail weapon of sorts, thus the already having a tail thing. Now i have to note that i am keeping in mind the Whipping Tail Aspect found later on, but see no conflict, the Whipping Tail Aspect could easily reflect that the Dragon has had the time and practice to use it's tail for more than swatting flys (like big dumb cows), or putting a ribbon on it to make it look pretty (like my favorite bud Eyor from Winne dah Pooh.).
So any way...
 I was thinking of either a progression rate where they buy each part seperately or of letting the Player choose which Natural Weapons they wanted with a bonus at 5. For example here is what i envision the Proggressive chart to look like- #1: Claws, #2: Fangs\Maw, #3: Horns, #4: Tail Spike\Razor, #5: The previous Weapons can now do Aggravated damage.
For an example of letting the Players choose, I would give the above 4 Nat. Weapons on a list and let the Player pick which order they buy them in, but then the catch (not Changeling style) would be that they need to eventually buy all four Aspects of Nat. Weaponry before they get the sweet 5th dot for Aggravated damage.
Alternately...
You could even manipulate the Aspect in a way where the Player would have to buy an invisible 5th dot for each Nat. Weapon to allow it to do Agg. damage. Thus in the write up it would look like a 1-4 dot Aspect with the 5th dot labeled as "special". 

interesting but are we actually going to expand a bit on each one or is just each dot just another way for a Dragon to dish out Lethal damage? 

Lostkith:

As for the Flat Bonus for all Natural Weaponry... let's face it Dragons are scary mo-fo's who's Nat. Wep. should make every other super crap themselves rather than face them, but then we gotta think game balance and not have the Dragons be able to slice\bite\ram\swat everthing to death in one hit. My balanced solution is a flat rate of (+2 L) to all Natural Weaponry attacks. If your looking for a bit more game balance, you could always have an activation cost for turning on Agg. for either all, or one of the Natural Weapons that the Dragon possesses. (That's kinda in keeping with the vamps Claws and the Were's gift)

ideally, a Dragon in it's True Form could kill everything in one hit (one of the reasons why elder Dragons generate a reputation of something not to be messed with). the issue is trying to kill the Dragon before it gets to the point where it vastly overpowers the other sups.

my suggestion is that it cost 3 Breaths to inflict an Agg. attack on another creature right then and there. however, once a Dragon gotten all of it's natural weaponry out (and has speced the last dot) then the Dragon inflicts agg for free. 

that's of course your fighting a Dragon hand to hand (which is a very stupid thing to do..).

Lostkith:

moothing Incense= Well, it's obviously spelled wrong and should be Soothing Incense. If it was intended as that, oops. But i think it should be my way, and here's why... It seems overpowered the way it's written. A standard +1 to all Social rolls is really insane, especially when i looked farther down the list and saw we had other Aspects that gave bonuses to other Social skills. So i would give it a bit of a tweak and add it as part of the family of Socail Skill modifier powers that Dragon's can access. This is what i would do here...
Soothing Incense= +1\per dot to all Socialize and Persuasion rolls as it puts others at ease.
Forked Tongue= +1\per dot to all Subterfuge and Expression rolls as PC is granted in edge in speaking and lying.
Reptillian Fear= +1\per dot to all Intimidation and Animal Ken rolls as the Dragon puts down it's authority over all creatures.

much better. but are the drawbacks that we have put for each of those Aspects still in place?

Lostkith:

Fire Skin= Ah, i love this one! Stoking ones inner Furnace to the point where it can burn others is awesome! Only thing i would do is make the damage lethal and slap on a 1 Breath cost. Now that i write that, i guess it would be just fine as Bashing damage, but if the Dragon wants to burn some Breath, as an alternative, they could cause the damage to be Lethal for 1Breath\turn. Yeah, that's sounds pretty sweet.

sounds good.

Lostkith:

Serpentine Form= Interesting.... kinda creepy they still keep their withered limbs in this write up... yeesh! If it were me, i would just say "Goodbye Limbs!" This cuts out all the guess work about using weapons and manipulating stuff with this Aspect on, and get's to the heart of this power which is allowing the Dragon access to places they normally can't. The mechanics part that covered the use of the Aspect was great as written.

well, the creator of that Aspect wanted to do exactly that.

my thing was is that with this aspect, the Dragon looks like the Eastern Dragon (long snake like body and restricted limbs) instead of just turning the Dragon into what basically amounts to a large snake.

Lostkith:

Whipping Tail= Here's what i'm thinking, instead of creating a tail it allows greater expertise with ones' tail. I would say it allows a +1 per 2 dots (rounded up) to all Brawl and Athletics rolls. And it wouldn't neccesicarily just be for just balance when it comes to the Athletics rolls, for i can see Dragon's using their tails as extra leverage\grabbing stuff in climbing, or as extra pushing\spring-like when it comes to jumping, etc., etc. Obviously not great for throwing things, but ya got to draw the line somewhere i guess. And obviously it's Brawl bonus only gets applied when it specifically uses it's tail in combat, thus giving them increased incentive to buy Nat. Weaponry for the tail.

that seems good. you also might want to make it so that when ever someone tries to knock down the Dragon, he may add his dots in whipping tail to his normal dice pool to avoid being thrown to the ground.

Lostkith:

anwhile i love the look of such Aspects in my head like Fire Skin where you see a burning glow pulse from within the chest of the Dragon and quickly turn the whole of the Dragon's skin into a deep, glowing hue of red. And if they bump it up to Lethal damage seeing the clothes start to ignite and smoke. While another image that leaps out at me is when the Dragon uses Inferno, seeing the buildup of a bright burning light in the throat of the Dragon and the suprise on some poor saps' face as they get a face full of burning! Ahh. I truly have fallen in love with the idea of this game gentlemen and women.

that's good to hear, it look forwarded to more input as we slowly get this game completed.

Updated the wiki with some of your aspect suggestions (I did not change Serpentine form for the reasons stated earlier).


Here's what I put up for Natural Weaponry.  It's a little different than your suggestion, and a little more complex, which is why I'm posting it here too for feedback.

CJC:

Natural Weaponry

Each active dot unlocks a different bioweapon in the dragon's arsenal.

Teeth and Jaw

The first dot unlocks Dragon teeth and jaw, which allows the dragon to bite without an established grapple. The bite does 1(L).

Tail Spikes and Scythe

The second dot unlocks weaponry attached to the Dragon's tail. If the dragon has not manifested any tail aspects yet, this dot causes one to form. The tail can be used for sweep attacks, to grapple (It is considered to have Strength -2), or to stab. Each of these actions does 2(L).

Claws

The third dot unlocks the dragon's claws, vicious slashing things that inflict massive damage. Claws do 3(L), plus 1(L) for every two legs not used for movement this turn (As in, no Speed Bonus applied).

Horns

The fourth dot unlocks the dragon's horns, a charging weapon for skewer purposes. The horns inflict Lethal damage equal to the number of yards traveled this turn {Minimum 4(L)}

Aggravated Assault

The fifth dot makes all the previous weapons inflict Aggravated damage.

(This may be a little overpowering compared to other supernatural creatures. Let me know if the damage is too high)

==================================
On another note, I made the Sect of Flesh.  It has three abilities, one being a distraction, one being an anesthetic, and the final being the specialty theft.  It also lets the dragon stack bonuses from stolen specialties with her own (So she could stack helicopter piloting {Her own skill} with stunt piloting {A stolen skill}, but not forest survival with rainstorm survival {Both her skills})

Hey again. Sorry for the lag in returning a response. RL can get in the way of these hobbies too much sometimes. Heh.

Ah... let's respond to the Common Aspect comments here now... I love what people are adding into Additional Legs with the bonus applying to overpower manuvers and counting towards the penalty to such grappling manuvers. The addition to Defense due to extra legs though... that seems pretty twinky to me, like another way to boost something that's not really related to the Aspect... a bit over the top for what they are already doing for you.
Whipping Tail tweeks that you all mentioned are pretty sweet, i say run wild with them and don't look back.
I have now seen the light as far as it's concerned with the Serpentine Form and now side with the small leg camp. It's a very excellent image and works great in game, i would stress the not being able to use weapons with the Serpintine Form though, only way it makes sense in my head. Not that they can't carry stuff, just too akward to wield a weapon properly.
I'm finding myself leaning in agreement with Shock on the Keen Eyed Aspect. (and this is going to lead into my big rant on powers having drawbacks here in a second, so be prepared! and forewarned...) I like the 1 for +1 without the worry of overload of sensory input. Most reptiles have the great nictating membranes over their eyes and most don't hear so much as feel\hear the vibrations of things\people\stuff, and that's about all the argument i can come up with to support that...
Took a look at what you posted on the Wiki about Natural Weaponry and i have to say that i really liked what i saw there. You took my idea and married it to yours and created a beautiful hurting others monster! Kudos.
Ok, rant time.
 (i warned you.)
I have been looking at the rest of the Aspects further down the list and i also noted Shocks' comment under the Social boost Aspects and now i just want to address this whole giving them some sort of drawback or weakness with every (or most every other) Aspect. I get we need to keep some sort of balance in the way these Dragons operate and spew out powers, but it seems very unneccessary to me to do so to alot of these powers. I mean here are these perfect predators, monsters of legend, and all around bad asses and it seems like we slap their hands every time they go for the gusto with these Aspects. Now with damaging Aspects like Inferno, Nat. Weaponry, and the like i can see putting a cost to them so that the Players don't run ramshod over any crossover games, but to limit them in all these little ways that a Player has to try and continually remember from one scene to the next is a bit vexing and would probably get house ruled out in some folks homes. (keeping in mind this is all my opinion). My proposed fix for these would just be to add a Breath cost of 1-3 to limit the usefulness or number of times such a power can be used. Others that don't have such an impact on the Health of other PC's should\could be without cost and that i have no problem with.
Now if there were more of a Dragony back story that informed us on why there were Drawbacks that'd be cool, but i just don't see why it's neccessary otherwise. I point to Vamps and Were's mostly when i say "Hey, they don't usually have Drawbacks for using their Disciplines or Gifts. And Dragons are way badder asses than them!" So why the need to hamper them or give them even a slight pause in using their very impressive Aspects? That's the whole point we are making with them is it not? That they are the things of nightmare that the other monsters fear in the Darkness? Then let's free ourselves of some this balancing thinking when it comes to Aspects and let's think of other ways we can limit them if we really need to it. But in my opinion, i think we can eliminate some of these tit for tat Aspect usage bits and be ok.
I don't think there's any more i can say that won't sound rehashed or tired ranting. I hope my point was clear and if not please let me know and i'll try to clarify. Hopefully next you all hear from me i'll be throwing in my 2 cents on the next couple of Aspect lists.
Until then take care all and ...
Later.