Religion: Redux

Ophidimancer:

Actually, sexual orientation is not defined solely on behavior, so yes, in certain situations a man who predominantly has sex with other man can also be considered heterosexual.  You find this to be the case in some situations of heavy institutionalization, like the army or prison.

Ok, fine, insert another, better metaphor, then.

Hehe, that's what she said.

Widdershawns:

Do you see where I'm going with this, Mord, or am I completely off base?

Yeah, I see, and in some ways, I understand. But that does not change the fact that a Catholic cannot help someone procure an abortion. Period. She is helping. No one is saying she can't do it; they're just saying that she can't do it and remain a Dominican. Helping someone procure an abortion is against the teaching of the Catholic church and therefore against her vows as a nun. What she could do is go out there and protest against the protesters' violence, but she should not, as a Catholic, be escorting women into the butcher shop.

MrWhisper:

This is the moral impasse. If a nun believes that women are being abused and attacked and the congregation believes no nun should defend them, lest associations be made...

It's not an impasse. You can defend the women without escorting them into the butcher shop. Defend them, and during your defense of them, plead and beg with them not to go in. Show them by your love and protection that there are better ways to do things; counsel them; give them options. But do not condone what they're doing. Christ defended the woman about to be stoned for adultery, a sin as bad as abortion, but did he condone her behavior? Did he enable her? Of course not. He said, "Go, and sin no more." The nun can defend without helping procure abortions. Where's the moral impasse? All the nun has to do is remember her Sunday school Bible stories to find the simple answer to this non-dilemma.

Widdershawns:

Or guys who need some money quick and so do gay porn....

Can you blame them? I mean, come on, who of us hasn't gone down that road once or twice? Man's gotta eat!

Has anyone looked at it from the point of view that she was helping the protestors to not sin by committing acts of violence against those entering the clinic?  By demonstrating charitable behavior in light of a diffficult situation?  Hate the sin, not the sinner.

Abortion is a rough thing to go through for most women that have one, is it so terrible to have someone that they can speak with available to them, someone with a religious background that may actually sway their decision in a more positive direction?

MrWhisper:

If you're not a conservative Catholic, you're not a Catholic. Period. End of story. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $100.

Why is it wrong for an organization to have rules the define membership within it?  I mean, I'd love to call myself a member of Mensa, but I don't have the IQ for it.  Calling myself a member because I feel like I'm close enough to their requirements even though they disagree with me on the topic seems disingenuous at best.

I don't agree with Catholicism's position on abortion, but they still have the right to set their own terms of membership.

Mordwyr:

Widdershawns:

Or guys who need some money quick and so do gay porn....

Can you blame them? I mean, come on, who of us hasn't gone down that road once or twice? Man's gotta eat!

You dirty, dirty man.
I need to go look at some pictures of kittens now.  Or naked women.

Darksider:

Abortion is a rough thing to go through for most women that have one, is it so terrible to have someone that they can speak with available to them, someone with a religious background that may actually sway their decision in a more positive direction?

If that's what the sister was doing, no one would be upset, but she is actually feminist and pro-abortion (from what I've read). So she is not counseling them away from abortion but enabling them to do something which she does not see as wrong. Which would be fine, if she weren't a representative of the CC. No one's saying people can't do what they want to do. It's a free country! But she shouldn't be able to do it and remain a symbol of the CC. Indeed, she has excommunicated herself by helping women procure abortions.

Mordwyr:

No one's saying people can't do what they want to do. It's a free country! But she shouldn't be able to do it and remain a symbol of the CC.

True enough. Small miracle the Vatican isn't the only Jesus game in town. They'll toss her out of the church, she'll go down the street and become an Episcopalian. Or an Anglican (hoho! The irony).

Such is the magic of the Son of God free markets.

MrWhisper:

True enough. Small miracle the Vatican isn't the only Jesus game in town. They'll toss her out of the church, she'll go down the street and become an Episcopalian. Or an Anglican (hoho! The irony).

Such is the magic of the Son of God free markets.

I usually stay clear of here, but took a peek just to see what was up...

That last line literally had me laughing out loud...

50 points for Gryffindor...

MrWhisper:

True enough. Small miracle the Vatican isn't the only Jesus game in town. They'll toss her out of the church, she'll go down the street and become an Episcopalian. Or an Anglican (hoho! The irony).

haha
Problem with that is--she made a vow, an oath to follow the CC, so it's not so much her being kicked out as it is her going back on her promise. She should've never made the promise in the first place--to be subject to the CC's Magisterium--if she didn't agree with them. That's the whole issue. It's about saying one thing and thus representing the CC, but then doing things against the CC's teachings. Those heretics down the street will welcome her with open arms, but even heresy can only go so far, which is why so many are returning to the CC these days. They say enough's enough.

etc.

It's funny, I was raised nominally Catholic, I even went to Catholic Religious Instruction every Tuesday and Thursday afternoons in Elementary school.  My mother was a flat out Catholic School Girl, my father was Catholic, my grandparents on both sides were Catholic.  And I strayed for a very long time, moving so far away from Catholicism that I ended up Wiccan for a few years. 

Now I'm a Gnostic Christian with Catholic beliefs.  I respect the Pope as the voice of God on Earth, and even view the Protestants as being prideful.  So basically I've come full circle with a few of my own beliefs tacked on (and I'd probably still go to Sunday Mass if it was still a Latin Mass, I think that the ritual was lost and thus I don't feel I am hearing God's word in English)

Yet my fiancee was raised Methodist, and went to churches that were Methodist, Baptist and Pentecostal.  At this point she doesn't know what to believe other than "be a good person and God will reward you some day."  And I'll admit my last confession started with "I'm not sure I believe in God."

I don't like Protestants as a whole because I feel that adding too much of a spin on the Bible corrupts it with you own views, rather than the views it was meant to reveal.  I also view about 85% of the Bible as being alagorical rather than 100% truth (I have been told that such a viewpoint isn't sinful and honestly if I had been told it was I would have left the church again.)

The point is, when I decided to make Confirmation (which I didn't do until 2 years ago) I agreed that I saw the Catholic faith as being the Word of God on Earth.  If it weren't for my Priest telling me "seeing the Earth as the devil's playground" and "proving my soul is worthy to be with our true God" were very Catholic, just not the normal interpretations I would be lost.

You make an oath to serve, you follow that oath.  If you disagree with the guidelines set for you by your superiors, you leave.  No questions about it.  The nun excomunicated herself when she went against the rules of the church.  Take religion out of it.  An employee is told "This is Company policy"  then when she goes against the policy she is basically saying "if you catch me I'm fired, and I know it."

On a different note I find it funny that the Catholic Church does not consider my additional beliefs to be a sin, and even view evolution as a logical explaination of how God created the world.  It seems to only be the Protestants (or more specifically Southern and First Baptists) that seem to think that science and God cannot co-exist.  Ironic especially since they left the Church specifically because they viewed the Catholic faith to be "backward thinking" and "corrupt."

Maybe a bishop has gold jewelry and fine clothing... but is it the Catholic Bishop/Priest who is living in the 20 bedroom mansion and driving the Masaradi or is it the Preacher or a more protestant faith that is?

You've got some very good points there. Can I just point out that something can be both allegorical and true? That's what JC's parables are.

Just wanted to share.
At supper tonight, we were all discussing the theory that the universe is not limitless, that there are indeed boundaries to the edge of the Big Bang. So we amused ourselves by conjecturing about what was beyond the edge of the universe. Nothing? But isn't nothing something, for it is the absence of anything? Anyway, we got to talking about other things, about angels and demons and how they are not like us. They don't have bodies. They are not dual-natured like us, for they are not both body and spirit. But God the Father is, though JC is not. Anyway, then we got to talking about how only Our Lady and JC have bodies in heaven right now, and only at the recreation of heaven and earth will we receive new and perfect bodies. Which means that the saints in heaven "now" (is use "now" with many qualifiers) are waiting for bodies. Then I said that some saints have been waiting for 2000 years, but not really, because there is no time in heaven. To Alsan, all times are soon. That's why JC says he's returning soon, even though it's been 2000 years.

That's when my second eldest daughter blew me away. She said, no it hasn't been 2000 years. It's only been 9. (That's how old she is.) And just like that, wisdom out of the mouth of babes, I understood! The Gospel is a living thing, which applies to every living human being. Thus, Jesus' words are for each person, not for some historical timeframe or context. To my daughter, it's only been 9 years since he's been gone. All times are soon for JC because the nature of his revivifying Gospel words. No one's been waiting for JC for 2000 years. To Aslan, all times are soon.

Anyway, whatever. Just sharing.

Deimos_Masque:

On a different note I find it funny that the Catholic Church does not consider my additional beliefs to be a sin

Your Gnostic beliefs are non-canonical, per the Vatican, and by that turn a heresy. Gnostic works don't get any love, be it from Protestant or papal Christians.
 
Which is why I'm puzzled how you reconcile your Gnostic Christianity with Catholic dictates. How does the demiurge/the Sophia/the Aeons, et al fit? How does the individual quest for gnosis square against the CC's belief that it and it alone holds the keys to Christ's teachings?