Combat Hack (Armor reload)

The book is great and the idea are also great, however, using some hacks in that book can dramatically change the impact of the game.

That's why I ask a simple questions to all of you guys:  -Wich hacks do you frequently use and finds great ?


For example, I was thinking about the hack that makes a Gauru use 8 again on all str related roll and brawl attack...
They don't have more chance to hit than before, but when they do... you are sliced up pretty badly...  Does anyone find that too much ?  I mean, in my game there is also some vampires and changeling...

Another example... making the uratha able to regenerate a number of bashing (and lethal with the expenditure of essence) equal to his primal urge rating...
Do you think that using this the character becomes too powerful ?  I mean, with 4 of primal urge... a combat oriented Blood Talon would be... just... wow.

What do you all think about this ?

Wich one you use, and why ?

Thanks to all of you.

Setzer74:

For example, I was thinking about the hack that makes a Gauru use 8 again on all str related roll and brawl attack...
They don't have more chance to hit than before, but when they do... you are sliced up pretty badly...  Does anyone find that too much ?  I mean, in my game there is also some vampires and changeling...

Another example... making the uratha able to regenerate a number of bashing (and lethal with the expenditure of essence) equal to his primal urge rating...
Do you think that using this the character becomes too powerful ?  I mean, with 4 of primal urge... a combat oriented Blood Talon would be... just... wow.

I think its totally based on the feel of the game you are trying to get.  Werewolf lore and pop culture is loaded with varying degrees of invulnerability for the story, and if you are trying to give your werewolf game a feeling of unstoppable death machines that make minced meat out of anything they get their claws on, while at the same time shrugging off just about any damage tossed at them, then these hacks are aboslutely awesome.   To me the whole reason they came up with those hacks is basically White Wolf saying "Hey, we tried to make the various game lines balanced, but we also know that there are tons of examples of more bad-ass supernatural creatures out there than how we built ours. And we know some of you will probably want something more bad-ass, so, here you go, go have fun. : ) "

The only drawback I see to adding the various hacks is it can possibly have the sideffect of making the players more focused on combat instead of story.  When they see all these neat things they could do when carving up slabs of meat, and not as many emphasizing the social and spiritual sides of their games, the players with less sense of focus on their character concepts might revert to hack n slash mentality, which I feel is a detriment to any game.

I would probably never add more than 2 hacks at any given time, just to keep the level of "omgislashyourfaceoffkthxdiez!!!"  to a bare minimum.  : )   But thats me, and I can certainly appreciate the appeal of an uber-death machine set loose upon an unsuspecting world.

I think it really depends on what sort of theme you're going for in your game.  There are enough adversaries and powers in the game that as an ST you can always stomp whatever your players throw at you, so 'too powerful' is subjective to your universe.

I also find that Gauru form from the base game doesn't always mesh well with the combat books to begin with- with combat styles and the ease of getting multiple attacks the 'war form' quickly becomes outmatched.  Multiple attacks, like in the previous version, are often what make you the winner in a fight.  You can't use multiple attacks in the war form as they take thought and finess, which is prohibited by the base rules.  So adding abilities to the combat form might actually make it the form of choice for fighting.

As for regeneration, I've not played in a game where primal urges have been exceptionally high (probably due to the high cost), but it IS only bashing damage- most games I've been in you're taking lethal anyhow- no one punches a werewolf, you use a weapon to fight them, so I wouldn't imagine this as being 'too powerful'

I don't currently use any of the new hacks in my games, but I've considered running a game that uses most of them as the group I play with often longs for the power and brutality of Werewolves from the Apocalypse.  I think you could give your players these powers, but you may have to adjust your enemies to match- for example if my players all did 8 agains with their attacks, I'd probably send a lot of smaller enemies against them, knowing that each enemy would probably die in one or two hits.  At that point you still provide a challenge (lots of enemies, death by 1000 cuts) while allowing your players to revel in the sheer power of a werewolf.  If it starts to become unfun for the other supernaturals, consider modifying hacks for them, or modifying the storyline to give each of them a chance to shine in their own right.

Those Hacks do make Gauru form nasty.. BUT.. you still have the time limitations.. and most smart Forsaken make plans to fight their battles in other forms less liekly to cause them to kill their pack mates..

Charmander:

As for regeneration, I've not played in a game where primal urges have been exceptionally high (probably due to the high cost), but it IS only bashing damage- most games I've been in you're taking lethal anyhow- no one punches a werewolf, you use a weapon to fight them, so I wouldn't imagine this as being 'too powerful'

With 4 of primal urge, the character regenerate 4 bashing...
By spending ONE essence, he regenerate 4 LETHAL instead...

It's not just bashing...

Setzer74:

With 4 of primal urge, the character regenerate 4 bashing...
By spending ONE essence, he regenerate 4 LETHAL instead...

Ah, I forgot that part, thanks for the correction.  So it's a bit more powerful than my previous comment, and still lends itself to a combat heavy game.  In that case I'd be careful about the abilities in comparison to the other people in the group.  Creating balanced fights when you have a group of super heavy hitters often ends p with the less powerful getting squashed.  Making the werewolves better in combat is one thing, but I'd try to keep them from getting too far out in front.

I think the 8 again combat hack is quite well balanced and its a combat hack that i always use. I have used the "Super Healing" combat hack before aswell and it makes werewolves really hardcore so i would suggest that you do not use that hack if you are using other supers. But i do agree with everyone posting on how good the Armoury Reloaded is and the bleeding out, and gun rules are always used in my game too.

do you think not that using the 8 again, without the super healing is... overkill ?

I mean... more damage, same healing...

its ok ?

I think its tematically fine, it turns Gauru into a bomb (I have a PC that is more deadlier with Urshul than Gauru in every way, including Lunacy). Also tematically appropiate because 8 again = more chances to inflict exceptional successes on an attack which makes the characters roll for more Death Rage, thus makes Gauru into something of a last resort. (...I can even picture high PU uratha would be clawing themselves for hours until one surenders if they cant inflict aggravated damage.)

I personally am in favor of using every last werewolf related hack that benefits them in there, to make werewolves worthwhile in combat, compared to, say, Combat Marksman. Its not that werewolves aren't effective: Spirit Pack is pretty much the best thing ever, which you can spam to produce a billion spirit wolves. However, it kind of seems silly that the most deadly werewolf will be one that summons 20 spirit wolves and leaves for the umbra, rather than using gauru form.

Ephsy:

8 again = more chances to inflict exceptional successes on an attack which makes the characters roll for more Death Rage, thus makes Gauru into something of a last resort.

Totally off topic but this is one of the things I dislike most about this new version, is how easy it is to death rage, and how by the base rules the standad Gauru form is sub-optimal.

Our group houseruled out the 'dealing exceptional damage' from the giant list of what makes you go crazy and kill the rest of your pack, leaving the other in. 

Back on topic, I think both super healing and super damage are still thematically fine provided you have the right set of enemies.  This time around WoD is especially brutal, violent, and short-lived, and these hacks for the most part can play into that.

Death rage is something sad, but at the same time, having to roll to remain in control is doable...

Setzer74:

Death rage is something sad, but at the same time, having to roll to remain in control is doable...

I love the theme of Death Rage and rolling, and maybe my players are particularly unlucky but it seems that we lose more characters as a result of an unlucky Death Rage roll than anything else.  And players outright avoid the war form because other forms are more effective at defeating your enemies and reduce the chance of going into death rage unintentionally.  I miss the 'werewolf' form being the ultimate combat form.  The hacks go a way to make the form more werwolfy, imho, but would need tweaking and close watching.

Base dice-pool score of 6 for the Kuruth roll lower the chances of death raging get pretty nicely. (I usually do not spend WP during combat, there is aways the chance I would need it for Death Rage roll) doing this, one of my PCs has avoided Death Rage for a whole year netting Purity 3.

Then there is my alpha, Blood Talon Rahu, with boxing 3, lethal blow and in Dalu form he can roll about 24 dices to hit some poor fella (if he has no defence, which gets taken care by Slip Through from Tooth and claw Fighting Style). He's got WP of 6, never seen him kuruthing yet.

Then my group is apparently just especially unlucky :)