Stats for Set himself (oWoD)

Glottis:

And I believe Capadocious escaped total destruction as well.  I forget the exact details on that but I remember that Augustus did not actually diablerize him.

Off the top of my head wasn't there supposed to be something called the True Vessel which allegedly contained some of Capadocuis vitae?  I seem to remember Constancia having it or having something to do with it.  Wasn't it hidden somewhere (Help me with this guys and gals) that Claudius Giovanni (I think) destoyed and when Augustus found out what had been in there he destroyed Cladius in turn.  If there was some spare Capadocius vitae still around then possibly you could argue he was never properly diablerised if a half diablerie is possible.  But what finally got Cappadocius was getting so absorbed in his plans to achieve God Head that he didn't pay attention to what the rest of the clan were up to- look at Kaymalki where he seems to have been surprised at how many members his clan actually had.

Ventrue may or may not have been destroyed.

Saulot smiled when Tremere diablerised him- if I was Tremere I would have stopped immediately.  Come to think of it when Goratrix reported he had managed to find a place where an antediluvian lay in torpor apparently quite easily he should have had alarm bells going off but the thought of all that 3rd generation vitae rather threw common sense out of the window

Lasombra was taken down by a large number of Kindred led by his own childe whom he had made the mistake of trusting

And Brujah was destroyed by his own childe regarding whom he had an enormous blind spot- but I must correct someone else here nothing is as big as the hole in a Dan Brown plot save another hole in another Dan Brown plot

LesleyM:

And Brujah was destroyed by his own childe regarding whom he had an enormous blind spot- but I must correct someone else here nothing is as big as the hole in a Dan Brown plot save another hole in another Dan Brown plot

It was pretty early in the jyhad so is certainly within the realms of possibility, it happened so early on that the Brujah are considered a legit clan and their 3rd generation vampire a true anti

LesleyM:

Ventrue may or may not have been destroyed

Probably was by either Set or Brujah.

Loxosceles:

Antidiluvians are going to see their most common incarnation in a game setting as storytelling devices. They aren't normal characters, they're forces that impact the setting and act as a catalyst for the players.

This sums up my opinions on the matter.

Antediluvians arent just very powerful characters, not even demigods. They should be an epic event of themselves. Think something so big and groundshaking as 9/11, but towards the veiled World of Darkness denizens. They would be better described as a presence, a series of event bearing something in common to its aspec (in case of Set, darkness, betrayal and corruption) and etc.

Then again, a scenario in the very official Gehenna book displays the Antidelluvians as some sort of Super Injustice League, so you never know.

Hellweaver:

It's like trying to assign traits to Lucifer (please don't tell me DtF already did this, I will scream...), God, or Macho-man Randy Savage

ZOMG CHUCK NORRIS STATS PLEASE I NEED

Lipe82:

Loxosceles:

Antidiluvians are going to see their most common incarnation in a game setting as storytelling devices. They aren't normal characters, they're forces that impact the setting and act as a catalyst for the players.

This sums up my opinions on the matter.

Antediluvians arent just very powerful characters, not even demigods. They should be an epic event of themselves. Think something so big and groundshaking as 9/11, but towards the veiled World of Darkness denizens. They would be better described as a presence, a series of event bearing something in common to its aspec (in case of Set, darkness, betrayal and corruption) and etc.

Then again, a scenario in the very official Gehenna book displays the Antidelluvians as some sort of Super Injustice League, so you never know.

I always thought the idea of 3rd Generation vampires being "epic event[s]" was a bit asinine. Amazing level 10 Disciplines are given in the Vampire Player's Guide 2e and a few other places in the older supplements, and I think these give a good idea of what these ancients could really do. They are powerful, often obscenely so (Body of the Sun), but not as ludicrous as Dominating the whole world or shattering mountains to dust with Potence.

Lipe82:

ZOMG CHUCK NORRIS STATS PLEASE I NEED

I have the stats for Chuck Norris, but my PC crashes whenever I open the file :(

jmreilly:

I always thought the idea of 3rd Generation vampires being "epic event[s]" was a bit asinine. Amazing level 10 Disciplines are given in the Vampire Player's Guide 2e and a few other places in the older supplements, and I think these give a good idea of what these ancients could really do. They are powerful, often obscenely so (Body of the Sun), but not as ludicrous as Dominating the whole world or shattering mountains to dust with Potence.

Those 2nd ed level 10 disciplines were basically useless to a story teller. They were either too powerful or no where near powerful enough, depending on how you view the 3rd generation. These guys were basically three steps from God (from a certain point of view), giving rules to their powers seems a little pointless to me. Was there a level 10 ritual that let you ask God d3 questions, or did I imagine that :)

Hellweaver:

Those 2nd ed level 10 disciplines were basically useless to a story teller. They were either too powerful or no where near powerful enough, depending on how you view the 3rd generation. These guys were basically three steps from God (from a certain point of view), giving rules to their powers seems a little pointless to me. Was there a level 10 ritual that let you ask God d3 questions, or did I imagine that :)

I thought the powers were a good guide for the type of powers that a 3rd generation might have. I understand that many would consider the powers too weak (compared to say Plod Device), but I'm interested in why you say that the powers were too powerful. Like I said, I wouldn't consider Antes to be "3 steps from G-d", but I know other people certainly did.

I don't personally think they were too powerful, but there's bound to be someone somewhere that does. I tend to think of level ten disciplines as one of the many bad 2nd edition ideas that revised edition scrapped. Bardo and Soul Eaters are just a couple more examples.

Hellweaver:

I don't personally think they were too powerful, but there's bound to be someone somewhere that does. I tend to think of level ten disciplines as one of the many bad 2nd edition ideas that revised edition scrapped. Bardo and Soul Eaters are just a couple more examples.

Funny enough, I never minded Bardo either. I always thought that Paths and Roads were somewhat non-sensical, but I could find the idea of a Discipline to keep the Beast under control to be workable. I work Humanity a bit more like 1st and 2nd edition than revised has it set up though, so it works for me.

I prefer the antidiluvians as plot elements first and characters second for a couple reasons.

First and foremost, there's already plenty of old and powerful personalities running around to draw upon. I don't need the antis to be approachable as individuals because there are already a pile of NPCs I can use to fill that role. ur-Shulgi and Mithras, any of the NPCs that made it out of the various Dark Ages chronicles alive (or who I just feel like keeping alive 'cause I liked 'em), all the camarilla and sabbat high muckymucks and grand poobahs and literally dozens, if not hundreds of pre-printed NPCs in the "Who's Who" and "Encyclopedia" style book supplements. More powerful than the players is easy.

I tend to stress to inhumanity of the player condition. Whatever supernatural type they are, a lot of the character growth and experience expenditure tends to follow the process of the character learning about what they are. If (and I stress the if), I am going to use an antidiluvian in a game, I want it to be absolutely clear that this thing is utterly alien and unapproachable. There's nothing to empathize with on any level- and I present that in such a way that is should be a scary prospect. New vampire character has been having all these epiphanies about their condition, trying to find some middle ground between the demands of the beast and their former personality, they've lost what they used to be and are struggling to maintain some sense of normalcy or routine... An anti without stats presented as an inhuman force that's beyond their comprehension can put a little fear of the future into them, emphasize the importance of their moral objection to feeding (or whatever) because they're seeing what happens after time and with the accumulation of power.

I use them to radically change the setting. I suppose some might call it lazy storytelling but if I need an unstoppable catalyst to completely alter the tone or pace of the setting, an antidiluvian can certainly do that. It doesn't have to be as overt as making the players try to foil some jihad plot or as blunt as having an anti show up and issue proclamations to aim them in a new direction. The change can occur indirectly as a result of an antidiluvian's passing, or rumors of their involvement- just in the way the more approachable NPCs change their behavior, goals, timetables or agendas. It can shift a game from social to political power plays, from political to delving into mysteries and ancient secrets, from indiana jonesing into open warfare, push the players into a new city and a new setting a new country, into contact with new NPCs or new factions which they hadn't previously encountered. It can ramp up or tone down setting elements and encourage exploration of different areas of play.

And lastly... if it's got numbers, firm numbers that follow game mechanics, technically it can be murdered by the players. It may be unlikely or improbable... but it's technically possible. I'm not a big fan of the invincible NPC who the players can't impact or change in any way that they see on a nightly basis. That doesn't necessarily mean I want them trying to beat up (and let's face it, diablerize or somehow steal or subvert the powers of) an antidiluvian. By keeping the antidiluvians as not-characters-but-forces it tends to keep the players from trying things that aren't really in-character but are based around the slim possibility of an advancement to their sheet and their hopes that I'm dislinclined to kill their characters when we're deep into a story. If an anti has a dice pool of thirty, it can still botch. If it hasn't got a dice pool but just has effects declared, the feeling and weight of the encounter can be preserved and the story impact is entirely in the hands of the storyteller.

If I never want the players to feel small and powerless, chances are they'll never run into an antidiluvian. Or a demon, or certain power-levels of hunters or true faith or an army of werewolves or... any number of other scenarios which could be considered overkill. If I want them to get an impression that they're not invincible, that there are forces bigger than their characters operating in the world, that their advancements are petty meaningless little things- then an antidiluvian is appropriate. Or the hint of an antidiluvian. The wake of an antidiluvian.

jmreilly:

Funny enough, I never minded Bardo either. I always thought that Paths and Roads were somewhat non-sensical, but I could find the idea of a Discipline to keep the Beast under control to be workable. I work Humanity a bit more like 1st and 2nd edition than revised has it set up though, so it works for me.

From what I understand of Bardo the first level gives you back lost humanity for zero cost. This makes it the most deadly tool in a diablerists arsenal, as he can munch his way through whoever he feels like, with out having to adhere to a path, or any morals for that matter. Combine that with the Jedi hand wave power that lets you increase the difficulty of powers targeted at you and you have potential for a real game breaker discipline. And themeatically it stinks, a discipline that defeats the curse? It shouldn't be so easy. I can see why all trace of it and the cult that spread it were erradicated from revised edition.

Hellweaver:

From what I understand of Bardo the first level gives you back lost humanity for zero cost. This makes it the most deadly tool in a diablerists arsenal, as he can munch his way through whoever he feels like, with out having to adhere to a path, or any morals for that matter. Combine that with the Jedi hand wave power that lets you increase the difficulty of powers targeted at you and you have potential for a real game breaker discipline. And themeatically it stinks, a discipline that defeats the curse? It shouldn't be so easy. I can see why all trace of it and the cult that spread it were erradicated from revised edition.

It definitely has abuse potential, but so do many disciplines and discipline combos. In the manner it was presented though it was meant to be functional along with rigorous lifestyle habits. I also think that it is pretty rare and closely guarded (hence Kemintiri being hunted by the CoO), so many players would never have access to it.
I would have to agree with the overall idea that Revised Edition did a lot of work to do the STs job for them. It prevented abuse from the start rather than requiring the ST to reign in players. Like the NWoD it allowed greater control and "eveness" of game mechanics, but at the cost of diversity and originality of stories and characters.