Frozen Moment

So, I was re reading Rites of Spring and I was suddenly struck by all the potential uses of the ability Frozen Moment:

Success: The changeling touches an object and
freezes it in time and space for up to one scene. The
changeling can determine precisely how long he wishes
for an object to remain frozen in time. While the clause’s
effects last, the object is completely outside of time —
the object cannot move or be moved and is immune to
all damage. A water glass that the object dropped when
this clause is used upon it remains hanging immovably
in mid-air with the water unspilled until the duration
expires. Also, no time passes for an object, so if an alarm
clock was ringing when it was frozen, it remains silently
frozen in time for the duration and then finishes ringing
as soon as the Contract expires. The changeling can use
this clause on any object up to Size 3, and much touch
the object to use it. This clause cannot be used on living
or undead creatures.

Just how immovable is an object frozen in time...?  For instance, if a character were to hold up a blanket in the middle of a street and freeze it in time, and a car ran into it, would it be the same as the car hitting a brick wall?

Based on the description, that sounds like a clever use of the Clause.  A more malicious fae would use a length of fishing line instead, though.  Or a sheet of glass.

Of course, the trick is getting someone to drive into it.  The power only lasts for a scene (barring an exceptional success), so while getting some random driver to run into your unbreakable glass wall is easy, getting a particular person to do so it a bit trickier.  Though I suppose if you're in a car chase or a car is about to run you down, it would be a bit easier.

And this Clause actually has a plethora of uses for a clever Lost.  Suppose you need a makeshift ladder.  Just use the Clause on a couple of sticks or pipes and walk your hands up, freezing each in turn.  Need to keep someone from following you?  Duck through a small door (such as to a crawl space or maintenance duct) and freeze it behind you.  Want to make sure a car stays where it is?    Freeze a quarter behind the front bumper.  And if you're doing it at sunrise or sunset you don't even have to pay any Glamour.

Lots of Contracts have uses for clever Changelings far beyond their apparent power.

Would the Mask affect the blanket frozen in midair to mortal eyes?

I wouldn't think so.  Things that aren't somehow intrinsically fae aren't generally concealed by the Mask.  I don't think the use of Contracts is generally covered by the Mask, since otherwise it wouldn't make sense that using Contacts in front of witnesses would be a sin against Clarity.

The general concensus of the forums is; that is not the intent of the contract.

see this thread, much smarter people than me have worded it well.
http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/p/14200/284305.aspx#284305

There are some good points made in the thread Frosty linked.  But personally I like to encourage creative use of powers, especially in a game like Changeling.  At least one person in that thread made a point of saying that the power shouldn't allow floating steps or the like -- such as freezing a book about head-height to help you climb over a wall.  But in my opinion, that's exactly the sort of thing this Clause should be for.  It's not like this has much utility in combat -- since you have to be touching the object when you use the power, you can't really freeze bullets that are about to hit you in mid-air, and you can't freeze a dagger that you've just thrown.  I suppose you could freeze a sword you've just been stabbed with, assuming you held your action waiting to be stabbed for that purpose.  But short of littering the combat area with floating debris, perhaps crouching down behind a frozen jacket as cover, the power is of quite limited efficacy in a fight.

Some people suggested changing the effects of the power depending on the situation -- vagaries of the Wyrd and all.  But I think that's a bad precedent to set for a Storyteller.  If a player spends experience for his character to have some power, it just strikes me as wrong to say that sometimes it works the way the book says it does, and sometimes it doesn't, depending solely on whether the Storyteller likes the way it's being used.

So sure...  being able to suspend a brick in mid-air in the middle of a road so that a bus can crash into it seems a bit -- and more than a bit -- overpowered.  But it's certainly creative, and I think that sort of thinking should be rewarded.  And there are other ways to curb such "misbehavior".  First of all, using fae magic in front of witnesses is a sin against Clarity 6.  Second, the Courts generally don't approve of Lost who flaunt their powers in front of non-fae, and will act to discipline the errant Changeling before he raises too much suspicion among the mortal and non-fae supernatural populace.  And third, there are those hunters and other supernaturals to worry about.  A brick floating a few feet above Main Street is bound to draw attention, and not all attention is good.

So in my games, the Clause does exactly what it says it does, with everything that implies.  But if a character were to use that power in an unsubtle and attention-garnering manner, he'd soon learn that actions have consequences.

One of my NPCs had Contract of Hours.  During combat, he liked to fall down and grovel at his enemy's feet.  Of course, while he was down there, he used that power to freeze their shoes in time.  The person would be effectively glued to the floor, unable to move or affect his shoes in anyway way.  Then, said Changeling would go around to their back and shoot them, or do other terrible things.

Using it on your enemy's clothing is one of the best ways to use it.  Freeze their shirt in time and they will not only be stuck in place, but unable to move their arms as well.

Using on someone's keyboard would be a pretty nasty trick.

If you know your house is being broken into, use this clause on your safe. 

You could use it on a big cushy couch.  If you don't like the person who owns the couch, they won't find it very comfortable, as stiff as it would become.

I think of it as a matter of scope. A book used as a step ladder? Sure, that's a clever little trick. A cobweb used as a handhold to work your way over to a stairwell. Knock yourself out. The same cobweb used to garrote a passing bicyclist. Yeah, that's where it gets wonky. The suggested use, a frozen bullet being used to crash a train, was clearly well beyond what the magic should call for. In situations in which the prescence of an immovable object would severly harm the surrounding environment, the general consensus is that the Contract ends. I don't count things that could be harmful all by themselves on that list, by the way. The brick frozen in such a way as to smash a bus window could just as easily be tossed in front of the bus at a surprise moment as frozen in midair. What I wouldn't do is apply all the power to the brick that one might imagine a complete immobile and indestructible object would have on something hitting it a high rate of speed. It does the damage a brick would do, no more, no less.

Cleverest of Things:

One of my NPCs had Contract of Hours.  During combat, he liked to fall down and grovel at his enemy's feet.  Of course, while he was down there, he used that power to freeze their shoes in time.

Well, see... as broad as my interpretation of Contracts tends to be, this would be a no-no in my games.  Targeting a person's clothing is generally considered the same as targeting the person.  If I allowed a Lost character to try to affect an opponent's clothing with Frozen Moment, I'd make the roll contested against maybe Resolve (+ Wyrd).  I'd allow it against items the opponent is holding, but things the opponent is wearing would be considered part of the person as far as targeting them with powers.

mb_webguy:

Well, see... as broad as my interpretation of Contracts tends to be, this would be a no-no in my games.  Targeting a person's clothing is generally considered the same as targeting the person.  If I allowed a Lost character to try to affect an opponent's clothing with Frozen Moment, I'd make the roll either resisted or contested.  I'd allow it against items the opponent is holding, but things the opponent is wearing would be considered part of the person as far as targeting them powers.

I can see why you'd make that call, but I couldn't really see many uses for the clause otherwise.  Sure, you could do the whole book as a stepladder thing.. but I felt that the Contract should've had more combat-friendly abilities.  I mean, mages with power over time or space can freeze bullets in mid-air, while this Contract can only freeze the bulet after it's already hit you.  Similarly, mages can age people, not just objects.  I felt that the Contract was lacking some oomph (Well, aside from the final clause, that lets you send someone forward in time.. you can be waiting for him with a shotgun and several hungry ogres when he arrives).  I think that the shoes of the person was a pretty clever use of the contract, though Im giving second thoughts to the shirt. 

Plus, targetting the person's clothes isn't always like targetting the person.  If you are setting their clothes on fire, I would agree its the same and should be resisted.  Meanwhile, if you are transforming someoe's clothes into different clothes, or making them get too big or too small.. I would say it's definately different.

However, the target should have a means of escape if he knows whats going on.

mb_webguy:

Cleverest of Things:

One of my NPCs had Contract of Hours.  During combat, he liked to fall down and grovel at his enemy's feet.  Of course, while he was down there, he used that power to freeze their shoes in time.

Well, see... as broad as my interpretation of Contracts tends to be, this would be a no-no in my games.  Targeting a person's clothing is generally considered the same as targeting the person. 

I like this thinking.

In all other respects, I side with Nothri's interpretation, as I did in the previous thread.

Cleverest of Things:

The fact that it says that living things or undead things cannot be targetted doesn't include "personal items".  I would expect that if there was meant to be an exception for clothes, they would've included it.

Well, they didn't provide much clarification about what happens when something hits the immovable object, either.  It could have simply been an oversight.  But I'm of the opinion that active powers that affect another being should allow resistance of some sort.  And there's really no substantive difference between freezing a person's shoes and freezing a person's feet -- since the shoes are completely immobile and therefore inflexible, he wouldn't be able to slip out of them unless they were something like thong sandals.  So to add your reasoning to mine, Frozen Time wouldn't be able to affect clothing at all, with or without any resistance.

I allow freezing an object where something may run into it largely because it's not active and targeted -- you're relying on someone or something else to run into it, so it's not a sure thing.  And as I said, there are other ways to reign in characters that abuse it without (somewhat) arbitrarily nerfing their powers.

mb_webguy:

Well, they didn't provide much clarification about what happens when something hits the immovable object, either.  It could have simply been an oversight.  But I'm of the opinion that active powers that affect another being should allow resistance of some sort.  And there's really no substantive difference between freezing a person's shoes and freezing a person's feet -- since the shoes are completely immobile and therefore inflexible, he wouldn't be able to slip out of them.  So to add your reasoning to mine, Frozen Time wouldn't be able to affect clothing at all, with or without any resistance.

I allow freezing an object where something may run into it largely because it's not active and targeted -- you're relying on someone or something else to run into it, so it's not a sure thing.  And as I said, there are other ways to reign in characters that abuse it without (somewhat) arbitrarily nerfing their powers.

To pull off a touch on someone, even without doing an attack, is still a dexterity + brawl roll, which is contested or resisted by defense and such, if I recall.  Unless you doupe them into standing still.

Cleverest of Things:

To pull off a touch on someone, even without doing an attack, is still a dexterity + brawl roll, which is contested or resisted by defense and such, if I recall.  Unless you doupe them into standing still.

And I would say that touching someone is a prerequisite for freezing his shoes in place, but doesn't negate the need for a separate roll to use the power.  And since that power effectively targets the opponent, I'd require to roll to activate the power to be contested, even though the write-up for the power doesn't mention it. 

And that's assuming I allow it to affect the opponent's clothing in the first place, as it seems to be contrary to the spirit of the power as written (i.e. the statement about not being able to affect living or undead beings).  On the other hand, I just might, since as I said I like to reward inventive use of powers, and it's technically within the power's scope.