Running old Werewolf right? Aka, HELP.

Hey there. So, against the odds, I've managed to start up a relatively relaxed game of Old Werewolf online, which I've run in a very beer-and-pretzels fashion (comically over-the-top supervillains, dramatic one-liners, and explosions, which the Delerium covers up as UFO attacks, bears, or Russians). The game is designed to poke fun at every dumb thing from 1st and 2nd edition World of Darkness.

However, I want to gradually change the tone of the game to something more serious. See, I ended up flirting with a *very* horridly run old Werewolf game (and by horrid, I mean containing butterfly kami, wereunicorns, an an Ohio sept being run by a Hakken who owned a Grand Klaive that she appointed a kin keeper of [in practice, a Kin starting off with a Grand Klaive...just because], yet they complain the moment I break out the Child of Gaia Lupus lobbing grenades and flashbangs, because "Wolves can't use grenades..."), and the raw dysfunctionality of the game, how people brought in-game drama to real life, and vice-versa (the butterfly kami was made because one player knew another player "liked Asians" in real life), mean that I am looking to run a more serious game.

The game takes place in Comic Book Alaska, where The Bridge to Nowhere is umbrally turning into a gateway to The Abyss, where Endron was bankrupted and split into numerous megacorporations, Pentex funds behind-the-scenes aerial wolf-hunting killteams just for the hell of it, and the Lower Shale Lake was actually a Wendigo caern (You know...that one lake that got dumped out of a loophole that it would no longer be classified as a lake...). So far, the players have blown Ted Stevens house (UFO attack), destroyed a spectre cult, and tore up a bar when the drunkard Get Ahroun asked the kin pilot to stop for drinks. Now the werewoof justice league is under attack.

I want to throw philosophical/political issues back into this though, unrail the game so to speak, give them a very open-ended goal (e.g. reclaim Shale Lake Caern, make Alaska the first territory of the Garou Nation that is veil-free, take over the Garou Nation and pull the elders' heads out their collective ass, etc). Advice on what would make the game not a monty haul?

Also, Litany issues seem a bit out-of-touch with good gameplay. Case in point, stuff like "Leader shall not be challenged in wartime." Name a game where having all PCs follow one other PC has turned out well? Likewise "First of kill to highest in station..." You know how parties get when wanting to loot weapons, etc. (Then again, the party's main mentor is a Glass Walker, who gave him the GW litany interpretation "First of kill to greatest in need"). How does one resolve this?

Likewise, the whole "Weavertech is bad" scenario. What makes misuse of technology (draconian governments, etc) the work of the Weaver, instead of say...the Urge Wyrm of paranoia? Historically the march of progress has made life more livable for many, even if progress has been abused...I as a person found the entire concept wallbangerish. What do I do/

Man, that's open-ended all right.  Lots of ideas could work, so I suppose personal thoughts are as valid as anything else...

Personally, I might try to transition to something a bit more serious with something like a kinfolk in a modest political job asking the pack for help as furry muscle.  The kinfolk could then parlay that success into political advancement, and keep consistently asking the pack for help along the way.  A UFO attack on a Senator's residence, as a not-so-random example, might be quite a help to a certain political career if it happened at just the right time.  From there you can take on pretty much anything from dark cloak-and-dagger political/corporate espionage kind of stuff to open political battle paired with pitched delirium-hidden epic battles against whatever.  There can be all sorts of government-related goals - regulating Pentex to death, getting caerns registered for natural/historic protections, breeding a viable and large wild wolf population... and then you can annex western Canada and do all the same things there.

A variation on the political game would be high-finance/corporatism if you have any players that might be into that.  A hefty application of muscle could be just the thing to tip a Glasswalker's leveraged, hostile takeover of an Alaska petroleum company, for instance.  Cyberpunk has all sorts of application of military action by and against megacorps and who would be better at that than werewolves?  Corner the oil market and force industry reforms, acquire vast swaths of land for conservation (instead of getting the government to protect it, just buy it), create your own private Superfund project.

Another option I might try if the players were umbrally inclined, would be to send them on some mid or deep umbra quests.  The motivation can still fit in with general light-heartedness and the umbra can have plenty of zany surrealism but the results can have serious consequences.  Like politics, there are lots of epic spirit-related goals - bringing back or creating Incarna, creating new caerns or vastly improving an exisitng one, leading a spirit army against a Wyrm Incarna.

Epic Goals -  They have to come from the players.  You can throw stuff out there as ideas, like I did above, but in the end at least one player has to take ownership of a particular objective and run with it or it won't be fun.  If you have a player that can work well and keep in-game and out-of-game stuff separate, you might ask what they would like to do.  One friend and I alternate GMing various games and systems, so when I need a cooperative player I go to him.  Lacking that, you just have to keep throwing out possible hooks until someone bite.  Hopefully, you'll have a decent idea of what they like and it won't take a lot of fishing.

Litany - You can lighten up on it.  Pretty much every tribe book had alternate interpretations, different traditions or just stated that a particular requirement is ignored.  I'd work on rationalizing the players' attitudes as one of those alternate approaches.  In other words, stretch the litany to fit the characters instead of trying to make the players "behave."

Weaver - My take is the Weaver is not bad in and of itself.  It's just too much.  Using Weaver spirits and creations is fine as long as you don't do so in a way which strengthens the Weaver, making it more of a threat.  It's possible to make a game that's extremely light on Weaver elements and not blow off the cosmology.

Thanks for all the feedback. I've been rather light on all the Litany in general, mainly as the entire party is roughly ranked equal to one another (Submission to those higher in station being kind of moot), and the leadership is more informal. We have the battle leader, the spiritual leader, and the rest sort of fell in without issue; also, their base isn't actually a Caern per-se, mainly because I wanted to keep the possibility of travel open (It is the WORLD of darkness after all...). The team can actually *plan* stuff. As for the Veil, the Delerium has been *very* generous in rationalizing attacks for comedic purpose.

At the moment, the team mentor just bought it in a cinematic manner, and in his last breath mentioned a disk with his posthumous instructions. It is there he mentions his main grievances with the Garou Nation (That it's about to implode on itself in civil war), and his plans to build something more substantial/radical (basically "The Alliance", including relatively sane Garou. Beast Court rejects/dropouts [guy was a Boli Zhouisze, spiritually-respectful sorcerers, or even normal humans with promise). Whether the players follow up with such a goal would be up to them of course (and considering the grievances a *lot* of them would have, it would be a challenge indeed).

He would consider the 4 following people to be extraordinarily dangerous to this Alliance, for varied reasons.
-Gogol Fangs-First.
-King Albrecht
-Brom Mac Fionn
-Margrave Konietzko

Other quests of note:
-Reclaiming/purging two hives of Spirals.
-Bankrupting the Pentex subsidiaries pumping oil from Alaska/exposing their covert funding of wolf-hunting/bribery of Supreme Court.
-Getting the Wendigo to open up and be less angsty.

From a travel-perspective, some other metaplot I am considering includes:
-Samuel Haight's stolen Avatar reincarnantes. When a soulforged ashtray hits a hapless human, it enters him and transmutes him into a replica of Haight.
-Ever since MIR was destroyed, the Spirals have aimed to convert the International Space Station for similar purposes. Radio silence occurs.
-The Glass Walkers have a *lot* of troubles to deal with. Numerous caerns of theirs are on the decline, including the ones in Rome and Hong Kong. Others, like in Vancouver, lie in ruins and there's the plot for vengeance
-One of the players was a Shadow Lord exiled by her family for fear of her becoming too powerful...This gives me a lot of room to play politics.
-There are a *lot* of fun things hidden in World of Darkness. Buried treasures, mystic cults. If the players are up to explore, they'll find *something*. :P

@Travel contra localised play
Garou are often territorial. But most Tribes have some Camps that tend to wander around. Problem here is, that the PCs need to attend to Moots every now and then and that if they are not able to tell their stories frequently no renown will be turned from temp to permanent.
Also, local garou usually do not react very friendly if a travelling pack messes in their territory (protectorate not just hunting grounds).

@Delirium
If you want more seriousness without declaring events established as wrong or bad, have some Hunters or X-Files-like government agents track the players, so they will start to be more careful. Also, have the local garou stop the players. If their actions tend to have Mulder and Scully showing up just as they leave, the build a negative reputation.

@Quest / Planned Plot
It is kind of world changing. There is a reason why such an Alliance does not exist in the western world. However, one could try. It is kind of epic though.

@Sammy
Soulforging is the end of it all. The very definition of End, for a soul. If you want it, do it, but within canon I guess it is not possible. But did I mention, that Samuel sold his intel about the garou nation in exchange for a clone of himself.


EDIT:
About running Werewolf, right. I do not know, if what you plan is "right". It contains some ideas I would not seen as fitting for a Werewolf Plot/Setting. I to much sounds like epic fantasy, than savage horror. It is the kind of plot my epic level D&D character would follow, not my Cliath/Fostern Garou.

I should probably mention what our team consists of:
-An 8-foot tall, one-eyed, klazomaniac Russian Metis Get of Fenris Ahroun, with an alcohol addiction and overconfidence. Is the de-facto leader in battle, due to his ability to beat everything else up.
-A wolf-born Strider Theurge, and modern-day cowboy. Considers the ability to roam as a wolf and to walk among men among the ultimate freedoms. Generally prefers to fight in Hispo, though when the veil is an issue, he'll settle for a Colt revolver.
-A Shadow Lord Ragabash "princess" in exile. She was the runt of her family until she changed (everyone was *really* nice to her for a short time afterwards), and once she changed was exiled to Alaska under the premise of helping the Wendigo, as a veiled death-sentence; she swiped a Fang Dagger on the way out, and stumbled on the party instead. Is a social butterfly, although she is quietly annoyed that the Get's brand of diplomacy leaves no room for her maneuverings.
-A Glass Walker philodox and investigator who travels under the guise of a businesswoman with holdings wherever she's investigating. Originally was there to investigate the weirdness going on.
-A guest star Corax, who is tagging along and doing his part to prevent the Get-led team from charging straight-forward into ambush. Is paranoid there are snipers everywhere.
-A kinfolk bartender with Fascination (Social Engineering) and Alchemy (Drink-mixing) Sorcery paths. He doesn't know he's doing magic; as far as he's aware, he's just *that* good. Was a former safe-cracker before bugging out to Alaska, and has a working knowledge of explosives. Has Willpower 10, just because he's seen it all.

Additionally, there are about 23 human kinfolk, about 16 which are combat-trained. 2 of those have civil engineering training, and one is a psychologist; one of course is the helicopter pilot. As far as wolf kin...there are *some* but not really. Being glasswalker ones, they've fallen into something more like a Neodog role (bombsniffing/tracking etc). In the last game, the base was under attack, oddly enough while the team was away barfighting and explaining to the bartender his potential relationship to the world around him...the team Corax spotted the original assault teams, one which was busy setting up explosives on the helipad, while, another team that had taken kin hostages, another group covering both, and another group (spiral-led) went for attacking the base's leader (elder GW). So the team split up, going for a mix of direct combat. It turned into a brief gunfight, with the helicopter being damaged, but both teams were stealth-dispatched. Originally a vehicle convoy was supposed to come in to pick up the kin for nefarious sacrifice/breeding purposes, but the Glass Walker player stumbled across them (we were introducing his character to the game around this time), and went for stealth and cutting brake lines. While the hostages were saved and the bombs defused, the elder died and so the team is wondering where they're supposed to go now.

As far as the Delerium and other Garou...if I'm recalling right, there *are* no other Garou in Alaska save the Wendigo. Plotwise, two of their biggest Caerns are now Hives, and the last one is just there, holding out. Chances are when the others can afford to send representatives to find the team, there will be questions to answer or commands to abandon the territory ("We are higher in station. Your mentor was a renegade. Return with us to this Sept"), but if I recall right many Wendigo elders tend to have this "Screw you Garou Nation" mentality where many refuse to join the Grand Moot. From a fluff perspective, the only nearby sept would be in...San Francisco of all places (Canada being Wendigo/Talon territory), so the crew is kind of SoL in terms of "can they moot?" Hence the travel element.

I understand why the whole western alliance: War of Rage. Really though, we as players outside of the game started questioning the core logic of the game. "Wait, if the average Shifter only lives to about 30 years of age at most...how would they remain traditionalists?" We tried to handwavium it with explanations of ancestors/past lives, but it ultimately turned into "Gaia did it." That said, considering how many shifters are human-born nowadays and come from modern human cultures, you have your young punks going "Wait a second...humans that turn into dragons might not necessarily be bad dudes...", or your homid bastet going "Everyone was a dick in the old days...I know this club we should check out." Save for your mnesis mokole, plague-addled ratkin, or alien-minded ananasi/nagah, seems most the modern memory of the war of rage would be slowly dimming, especially as the older ancestor-spirits continue to fade into legend.

I know the Ahadi is supposed to be one of those affairs under construction, with potential to expand into South America if one goes by the rails, but even that seemed somewhat flawed, though a starting point.

Haight was a joke idea. Something to mock the fact he ever existed. =P

MagicJuggler:

Hey there. So, against the odds, I've managed to start up a relatively relaxed game of Old Werewolf online,

Good for you. I should be so lucky.

MagicJuggler:

which I've run in a very beer-and-pretzels fashion (comically over-the-top supervillains, dramatic one-liners, and explosions, which the Delerium covers up as UFO attacks, bears, or Russians).

Ooook. Not the way I like to play it, but to each his own.

MagicJuggler:

Advice on what would make the game not a monty haul?

In my experience, the way to steer players away from monty haul is to make other rewards worthwhile, and monty haul type stuff (items) less worthwhile. Make stuff like Rank and Renown matter (more than simply being qualifiers for Gifts, if for instance they want to try and unite anything, you can't very well do it if noone bothers to give you the time of day because your a cub). If you want to cleanse a caern, you'll probably need strong spiritual backup, so lots of Umbral quests with "rewards" of that nature rather than "Klaive of kickassness +5". Of course, this all depends on your players.

MagicJuggler:

Case in point, stuff like "Leader shall not be challenged in wartime." Name a game where having all PCs follow one other PC has turned out well?

Well, if your players cant separate player from character, it might be easier to play something that requires a little less.....maturity. Besides, just because he can't be challenged in wartime, does not mean the other players can't tear into him afterwards if he does a bad job. Being Alpha isn't always a dance on roses, you have power to a certain extent, but with that comes alot of added responsibility.

MagicJuggler:

Likewise "First of kill to highest in station..." You know how parties get when wanting to loot weapons, etc

Well again, if your players have that kind of mentality, it's hard to do anything. Again, the leader is responsible for the pack. Just because he gets first pick, doesn't mean he has to take the shiniest object every time. A good Alpha would reckognize what items are best used by what pack member. If he does not, over time it might just build up to where someone challenges him. And no, not all challenges need be martial. If the Alpha can be shown to have taken several unwise decision (grubbing items certainly would be), he can loose Renown, Rank and pack ranking at the next Moot.

MagicJuggler:

Likewise, the whole "Weavertech is bad" scenario. What makes misuse of technology (draconian governments, etc) the work of the Weaver, instead of say...the Urge Wyrm of paranoia?

If you will indulge me an opinion here, I believe you've slightly misunderstood the Weaver and the Garou attitude towards it. First of all, you example would indeed be more Wyrmish than Weaver tainted. The Wyrm is corruption in it's nature. However the problem with the Weaver being "evil" is that it goes against what we modern humans think, as you examplify:

MagicJuggler:

Historically the march of progress has made life more livable for many, even if progress has been abused...I as a person found the entire concept wallbangerish.

This view of technology lies at the core of modern civilization, so it is hard to just toss it away when sitting down to play a RPG. Nevertheless, you need to understand that this view of technology is NOT the one held by most Garou. Apart from the Glasswalkers, almost all Garou are wary of technology and "progress". It sometimes helps me to read or watch documentaries about people outside of our western technology-loving civilization to get into this mindset. Basically, the "march of progress" has made more people able to live in "comfort". But to naturalistic peoples and Garou in particular "comfort" is not necessarily good. Garou (and people, they would argue), need adversity, need to strive to hunt food etc. Going to the supermarket and sitting in front of the TV does not make you happy, it weakens you, dulls you, until you are just a drone, a puppet in the Weaver's web. This then, is why the weaver is dangerous; It pacifies people, weakens them, enslaves them, making them unable to cope without it's "gift" of technology. Furthermore technology does not have to be used by someone despotic to ruin nature and threaten the balance. Everyday use such as building a highway or logging a forest is the Weaver working to put more and more of Gaia under it's web.

MagicJuggler:

Really though, we as players outside of the game started questioning the core logic of the game. "Wait, if the average Shifter only lives to about 30 years of age at most...how would they remain traditionalists?"

Well, the Homids live quite a bit longer than that, and as you say, they are the majority now. However I don't think that life span has much to do with a culture being traditionalist or not. Basically, Garou society is traditionalist and ritualist because it works: Gifts ARE actually magic, rituals CAN summon spirits to do awesome stuff and as you point out, having ancestor spirits around who were actually there to see the atrocities (and yes all sides commited them, so a Garou ancestor might well tell of the horrible rage of a Gurahl or a devious assasination by a Nagah). Add to that the fact that they are highly militarized (basically most Garou think have a mindset akin to underground resistance fighters) and that many tribes and septs have invested alot of interest in keeping the society as it is, it should perhaps not be so surprising that the Garou and indeed most shifter are less inclined to change their long held views than normal humans.

MagicJuggler:

you have your young punks going "Wait a second...humans that turn into dragons might not necessarily be bad dudes..."

Indeed, which is why the other shifters are even contemplating having anything to do with Garou these days (like giving Mnesis to one, as in the Mokole book). That doesn't mean those Garou will have an easy time trying to convince others of their kind that the Mokole were NOT bloodthirsty wyrmish creatures after all.

MagicJuggler:

Save for your mnesis mokole, plague-addled ratkin, or alien-minded ananasi/nagah, seems most the modern memory of the war of rage would be slowly dimming, especially as the older ancestor-spirits continue to fade into legend.

Well the ancestor spirits play a pretty big deal here. As does the stories passed down from parents to cubs for milennia. Additionally, the Gurahl have several members who have slept since the War, and do remember it just fine. Most of these are so consumed with Rage it's extremely hard to convince them of anything other than the Garou being mass murderers. And since these Werebears ARE ancient and powerful, they also hold alot of sway in their (granted, more loosely knit) society. You've already covered Mokole, ratkin, ananasi and Nagah. The remaining Fera are: Ajabah (too few to care and matter, half of them gone to the wyrm), Bastet (might not remember or care about the War all that much, but they are powerful enough today and power hungry enough too, to not want to work with the Garou), Corax (already aiding the Garou, never took side in the War), Kitsune (can't really help you, it's been too long since I read their book, they never excited me), Nuwisha (see Corax), Rokea (as alien as Ananasi and Nagah, and at least as powerful as Bastet, but they never participated in the War of Rage).

To sum it up: 

Fera attacked by the Garou during the War: Ajabah, Ananasi, Apis, Bastet, Camazotz, Grondr, Gurahl, Kitsune, Mokole, Nagah, Ratkin.

Of these, three are dead, with a fourth almost there (Apis, Camazotz, Grondr and Ajabah).

Two have members who actually remember being there (Mokole, Gurahl).

At least three have mindsets so alien/different from Garou that it's difficult to see eye to eye or come to any sort of reconciliation (Ananasi, Nagah, Ratkin).

Which leaves two that might consider talking to the Garou about it (Bastet and Kitsune).

@War of Rage/Fera
I vaguely remember the Ajaba being charged with the same as the Garou (Protecting Gaia) in areas where no wolfs live (Africa), abd that they had a war with the Bastet, much like the Garou.

Corax and Nuwisha also have their downsides.
Corax not only tell others, what you want them to tell, but anything they see or hear and if they think there is a secret, they might investigate and then tell others. So, naturally you do not want to have them around, for they gossip about your mistakes and tell others things you would not want to be known. And Corax can't change their behaviour, it is their nature (and by extension, what they were charged with by Helios).
Nuwisha are charged with teaching others their wrongs by the means of practical jokes, to an extend that can be lethal. When garou usually find most Ragabash annoying, they would not want to be anywhere near a Nuwisha. And possibly the Nuwisha has other ideas about what is right and what is wrong than the garou. So most my characters wouldn't laugh, if they worshipped wolverine as totem and their sacrifices to the totem where tempered with by a Nuwisha, just to experience first hand that wolverine is way to much consumed by Rage. Like the Corax, the Nuwisha can't help their anti-social behaviour. It is their nature.

So, alliance, fine. I would try to get on speaking terms with Gurahl, Mokolé and possibly Kitsune, as well as some Bastet tribes.

Additionally, the Kintsune originated in the Eastern World, there was nor War of Rage there. They participated in the War of Shame, which lead to the extinction of the Eastern Gural, like any other Fera there (it was one mixed-fera-court vs. other mixed-fera-court everywhere in the eastern world until the eastern Gurahl withdraw making anyone suspicious and blaming them for the war that had raged, leading to a war against them and ultimately their destruction). Today Kitsune are rarely found outside of the Middle Kingdom, but they are unaffected by the War of Rage as such.
Nagah on the other hand are considered extinct by the Garou and the Nagah try hard to keep it that way.

heinrich:

I vaguely remember the Ajaba being charged with the same as the Garou (Protecting Gaia) in areas where no wolfs live (Africa), abd that they had a war with the Bastet, much like the Garou.

I might be wrong, but I think that might have been the case before the revised edition breedbook, when they were still considered to be Bastet. In the new breedbook, their role was more akin to that of the Grondr: Weeding and removing the weak and unfit. Only the Ajaba did so with animals, where the Grondr were mainly occupied with the plants and soil and cleansing it. This purpose left them very close to the Wyrm (after all, his original purpose is pretty close to their "assignment", as were the Grondr, and we know what happened to them).

The Ajaba never acknowledged the end of the Impergium, and they culled humans and Bastet along with any other animal. This last part was what almost destroyed them. The Simba, led by their king Black Tooth slaughtered the Ajaba. They were never touched by the War of Rage, and thus I see no reason why they would have any animosity towards the Garou. They do however distrust Bastet and hate Simba. So they might make good allies. If they weren't so hopelessly scarce.

heinrich:

Corax and Nuwisha also have their downsides.

Actually, I have to correct myself. I hit my books again, and it seems the Garou did attack the Nuwisha during the War, and now think they are extinct, just like the Nagah. Alot of Nuwisha are actually masquerading as Garou Ragabash. The only Garou privy to this information are certain members of the Wendigo and Uktena tribes. So you might say that they are in a way already allied to the Garou (in some fashion, without the Garou actually knowing about it).

heinrich:

So, alliance, fine. I would try to get on speaking terms with Gurahl, Mokolé and possibly Kitsune, as well as some Bastet tribes.

Gurahl ? A) There's not a whole lot of them left. B) They were one of the Fera hardest hit by the War. C) They are one of the few among which there exist individuals who actually remember said War.

I'd say you'd have a hard time getting the Gurahl to trust anything from the Garou.

Mokole ? Same thing as Gurahl. Although not hit as hard, they too still have fresh memories of the Eggsmashers. Really, with the way Mnesis works, it might as well have happened yesterday.

Kitsune and Bastet are both more eligible alternatives if you ask me. Although the Bastet were hit pretty hard during the war, they are more likely to put it behind them. The Kitsune weren't hit at all (I never got how they never touched on werefoxes in Europe, it's not like there are no foxes here...odd, if it was up to me, I'd rule that the Kitsune of europe were wiped out during the War, but eh), so they should be open to the Garou in a way like the Corax.

 

Hey, thanks for the feedback everyone.

Btw, I haven't monty hauled yet as far as treasure goes. No fetishes/talens or anything else of the sort. The party has been able to loot 2 shotguns and 8 light SMGs so far, mostly redistributed to kin guards. Again, since the lair was Glass Walker run (or at least run by *a* glass walker, an athro theurge in retirement), the implicit rules were "As long as you're here, these are the rules." (The interpretations right out of the Tribebook). The guy is dead now so it's up to the party to reinterpret him if they wish (then again, the party philodox is also a GW).

This could be controversial, from where I viewed Werewolf, the problem with Garou arguments that the Weaver is creating mindless conformity by means of information overload and granting every desire to a human (artificial desires are the domain of Empress Aliara, by the way) is they are really using such an external threat as an excuse to stick onto their dogmatic (weaverish) traditions of tribalism/feudalism. If the Shadow Lords or Fangs or Get had their way, it would be a hyper-feudalist (Think the Holn Survivalists from "The Postman" or the real-life AUC in Colombia) society of Might Makes Right, and the weak fit only for slavery. The Fangs and Get have had their internal struggles because of this, in Traditionalist vs. Renewalist political intrigue, or the relatively sane Get fighting their Nazi bretheren. The real reason everyone else hates the Glass Walkers, Children of Gaia, and Bone Gnawers, is for having the nerve to promote alternate means of government like representative democracy or Marxist communism as such ideals would flatten the divide between haves and have-nots. (And yet, it's funny how they accept Walkers around when it's time to pass out the ordnance...)

It all stems from ancestral memories of dominion and power. When one has ancestors going "back in my day, the humans knew their place, and we had the best and brightest of them to enjoy," it does create this desire for temporal power. The Bastet are guilty of this lust for power as well, the numerous Tiger Wars having destroyed the Khan Sultanate in India in a negative-sum game. Ironically, the Mokole seemed less prone to these visions of power; maybe it was because Mnesis lets them remember power-seekers crush others under their fists (from the book, it went that Mnesis "makes them unusually understanding (As far as residents of the World of Darkness go)").

So in that regard, the players would have to deal with both these ingrained arguments while finding ways to gain wisdom. The problem is that since granting honor/wisdom is generally a function of moots (and what is wise vs. unwise varies from Philodox to Philodox), various actions can turn boasting about certain deeds into a crapshoot. Can totems/spirits spread tales of renown by proxy, especially considering the only non-spiral caern in the area is wendigo and *they* sure as hell aren't accepting a former Walker group?

MagicJuggler:

artificial desires are the domain of Empress Aliara, by the way)

Artificial yes. But the desire for such things as warmth, food and shelter is natural, and not from the wyrm at all. What the Weaver does is give you the means to cover these needs with alot less effort than what is "natural".

I get the distinct feeling you may have read a bit too much into the Book of the Wyrm, to the point where you think everything bad is attributed to it. It's not uncommon, I did myself when I first picked it up. No wonder then, that you would have a problem to see why some Garou think the Weaver is as big a threat, if not bigger.

MagicJuggler:

they are really using such an external threat as an excuse to stick onto their dogmatic (weaverish) traditions of tribalism/feudalism.

That's an interesting way of looking at it, and I am sure the Glasswalkers would be eager to push that in such discussions. While you could argue feudalism has some weaver taint, tribalism is pretty much free from it. Basically, the more complex and orderly something is, the more does the Weaver likes it. It despises chaos and natural growth, decay, things changing, uncertainty. In the Weaver's ideal world, everything would function exactly as determined, without fail, with total predictability. Pretty scary, if you ask me. Now generally, society as it becomes more complex, grows more Weaver tainted, so heralding a return to feudalism or tribalism is seen as a step in the right direction.

MagicJuggler:

Can totems/spirits spread tales of renown by proxy, especially considering the only non-spiral caern in the area is wendigo and *they* sure as hell aren't accepting a former Walker group?

Totems spreading renown ? Not something I would allow.

Wendigo accepting other Garou, even Glasswalkers ? Yes now that is something I can see happening. Basically, you have some Garou who are crazy enough to go all the way up there to fight the Wyrm. Shouldn't take too long for them to prove themselves to the Wendigo. If it's one thing they respect, it's strength and resiliance.

What Brave New Forum with such Garou in it!

Hod:

I might be wrong, but I think that might have been the case before the revised edition breedbook, when they were still considered to be Bastet. In the new breedbook, their role was more akin to that of the Grondr: Weeding and removing the weak and unfit.

Are you refering to the Player's Guide to the Changing Breeds ?
For there are no other books to my knowledge, detailing the Ajaba (except the Bastet Breedbook).

@Gurahl and Mokolé
Gaining their trust might be extremly hard, but from what I understand of their mindset it is the most likely candidate for ongoing relationship, if initial trust is gained. Unlike the Corax or Nuwisha their agendas do not seem to be a obstacle for a partnership. Same might be true for the Bastet, if you can deal with their nosiness.

MagicJuggler:

Can totems/spirits spread tales of renown by proxy, especially considering the only non-spiral caern in the area is wendigo and *they* sure as hell aren't accepting a former Walker group?

Yes and no. Spirit Gossip is a well of uncertain information for all Theurges and Galliards. Having heard rumours might lead a sept farer away to send a pack to investigate or at least force all the Galliards to ask each pack that was in an area from where strange news come, to tell their tales. If done, their stories are more publicly known and eventually some sept decides to award a "Rite of Accomplishment" (for a detailed mechanic how this might work check 'Laws of the Wild'). The Rite turns temp Renown into permanent. This two might become subject to spirit gossip. Also, travelling packs might have their Galliards tell the tales of those honoured during the last moot they visited, in the next sept they visit. That is how renown spreads. If a NPC meets a Sc, you may want to roll the appropriate renown to check how much the NPC knows about the SCs accomplishments.
Spirits however do not perform any task that is equivalent with the "Rite of Accomplishment", so a moot where the rite is performed is still necessary.
According to ST Handbook revised spirits may sense renown and even if deeds not publicly known would lessen or heighten the renown. So, just lying to a spirit about rank in not so easy.


@Garou Nation
About the political system of the garou nation.
First of all, there is not central government or leader. Each sept has its own 'Council of Elders' and Septleader and in the region, they have the final say. Most septs are single-tribe communities. The very word 'sept' is (according to my dictionary) from old English and describes a off-shot of a Clan (namely when a couple of the Family Clan of McDurbon set out to found a new village, that becomes it's own independent community, but still is part of the McDurbon Clan). Same is true for garou septs, they are usually part of a Tribe and live among to that tribes traditions. That multi-tibal septs emerge is a relatively new thing (and some say it is bad, for it weakens the tribal traditions). Usually garou that come from the outside into the protectorate of a sept are either assimilated or driven away. One only owns a territory if one is willing to protect is, this is the wolf's way.
This being said there is some general information true for all septs of all tribes. They are Republics, in the sense of the word. Latin res publica meaning 'a public affair'. All the decisions and reports usually are told in public. That is what Moots are for (even if not a full moot ceremony is called, there is still a gathering and a appropriate rite), same is true for trail, punishment, praise and awarding rank. Sure, some leaders tend to make decisions on their own, but sooner or later they are brought before the sept. Each member (and possibly attending guests) may hear them and usually may also speak (usually if at least Cliath).
This being said, there are different approaches to this in different tribes.
Uktena and Wendigo, as well as Croatans, tend to adhere to this idealised form and even extend it further into the tribe. At least in Uktena TB 1st Edition, there was mentioned that a Great Moot with all Uktena attending (possibly there were some guards left at the various septs during that time), when it was to decide to either protect the tribal tradition or to open up to other cultures also oppressed by the white men, namely Asian and hispanic peons and black slaves.
Fianna TB 1st presents that the Fianna actually have a High King, although most septs do not follow his rule. So, Fianna probably also tend to have septleader/council of Elders structure on a sept to sept basis. The TB tells us about the Council of Song and the Righ as a title for the septleader.
Black Furies TB revised tells us, that there are two circles named Calyx. The Outer is the own really being a governing body, setting the rules for the tribe worldwide. Chosen by lot every 3 years and composed of 13 Furies, with one watching over one part of the World, they may set guidelines for all Fuires, but that's it.
Silent Stirder TB 1st Edition didin't mention anything about a central authority. As travellers they are so widespread and rare, that they have no need for such a thing either. Possibly what is talked about in the secret Strider Bar in Casablanca is kind of tribal politics.
Stargazer TB 1st Edition goes the same way as the Strider. The Stargazers are to few and to widespread usually living in the territory and thereby under the rule of another tribe. The few stargazer owned septs have obviously elders of some political power, but even when they decided not to work with the other tribes any more, but with the Courts, not all the Stargazers in the world followed their rule.
Red Talons don't strike me as having a central authority either. It isn't the way of the wolves to meet at some place to do politics or follow the dictate of foreigners. They are territorial and follow their leader on site. That's it.
Children of Gaia 1st TB had no mention of any central authority either. In revised True Silverheel's mandate to disband all Camps seems to had some impact on the tribe, but it's not that he is a central authority for the tribe.
Bone Gnawers also have not central authority. They wouldn't care if they had either.
The Get of Fenris have their Jarls. Some control larger sept's than others and in particular the Jarl's bearing one of the fabled Hammer fetishes are kind of authority figures, but they are not the leaders of all their tribe, although they could bring some weight if they would work together.
The Silverfangs also are regional split into the Houses, each with a king of it's own. So, they are also not a central authority either. Their local houses usually rule under the impression, that the leaders of the neighbouring sept's of other tribes are in their fealty, though.
Shadowlords are tricky, for they have septs, but each local member of the tribe might also be member of a shadow moot, a secret circle of activists furthering the agenda of their leader. Since it is secret, it is not true, who is actually loyal to whom and so, it is tricky to see, if there are real leaders. Nominally there are only the local septleaders.
Last, the Glaswalkers, and they actually had a governing body in 1st Edition TB, that was removed in revised Edition. The 'Wise Guies' as a Camp were having the most septleaders in their rows and were therefore effectively leading the tribe. In revised however, their rule was ended and the tribe is without an overall leadership. Elisabeth Genreader is popular and could bring a lot of Glaswalkers to do what she says, but that's it.

So, from the overall look, the SilverFangs might be ruling in a kind of Feudalism. Meaning, a relativly weak monarchy rules by proxy of regional leaders (the Silverfang of a given house rule by suggesting their wishes to the septleaders of the septs around their own). And that seems the case, the septleaders of a given region rule their territory, not more not less. Their rule is based on the support of their pack and sept, usually. Only the Silverfang know something like a right to rule by blood/ancestry.
And according to the rules Gaia herself gave the garou, the leaders right to lead may be challenge at any time during peace. And possibly by anyone whom the sept lets challenge (one would possibly kill pure breed three, son of a shadow lord father Silverfang before one allows him to challenge for sept leader, just like the cowardly Get ragabash). So, if a Garou tries to rule by power doing it bad, packs just stop following his command, thereby challenging his rule. If he can not make his commands stick, someone else will step in.

That's the main reason, why there is no central authority over the Garou nation. The local septleaders are (old pacts aside) not honorbound to follow the command of anyone from the outside and therefore they do not. Any person who wanted to establish such a rule would need anything to make other garou follow his rule. And even a mandate by Luna and Helios, as the Silverfangs have, doesn't seem to do the trick. Silverfang ruled for quite a while, just because they could ask the local leaders of the other tribes to meet with them and then present their plans and suggestion and take merit of their Pure Breed induced social bonus dice.

Oh, and about democracy: Garou work like earth does in 'Starship Troopers' (the book, the film only grants a glimpse on the political structure of the future). Only those who are willing to defend the country with their lives get a say in how it is run. Soldiers in Starship Troopers showed this willingness and were taught (during military training) the discipline and sense of responsibility to make founded decisions about who to vote for (or what referendum to approve). In a democracy usually nobody forces you to really know what you are doing. Not even people who's sole job it should be to do so (like Congressmen reading the bills they are supposed to pass before the vote is cast, we all know it wasn't done when the Patriot Act came in). So, democracy by parliament is only so good as the representatives. Direct democracy, like the swiss has, isn't much better. Sure, for all mayor decisions each citizen may decide for himself and is responsible for what he does, but only if most really dig into it and inform them self about the topics, the majority may cast a vote that is really the right one. If the majority just votes for the bill that is presented nicer, it is all down to advertising.
So, in the end, democracy can only really bring about a decision that is really founded, if done the garou way. What, Garou democracy? Sure.
There is the 'Breaking of the Bone' during the moot. If a decision is to be made, every person in the sept may speak out to it. The sept's talesinger and the philodox will tell about the traditions in regards to the topic (kind of checking all the possible decisions with the constitution) and when everyone is heard the septleader or the truthcatcher name the verdict. They evaluate all the facts and all the opinions brought before the assembly, evaluate the experience the speaker in question has on the topic and how much applause or disaffirmation his statement caused among the assembly. Then the rule is issued.
If someone is not okay with it, there is still the possibility to challenge. If nobody does so, the better. It is a decision and anybody was heard during its finding, and nobody objects.

What is this Starship Troopers movie you are talking about? Surely it cannot be that travesty that Paul Verheoven directed...(rolls eyes). If I recall right, soldiers couldn't vote until honorably discharged anyway; them and the scientists. Of course, there's this rather horrid fallacy that a soldier-run government could do the best of affairs for all. Look at the Third Reich's rise to power after the Weimar economy tanked bad. Goering and Hitler both had their military backgrounds, embellished though they may have been, yet we know how *that* turned out. SShip Troopers made the argument that because soldiers understood the concept of sacrifice, they could make unpopular votes if they would work in the long run, yet one can still throw out bread and circuses regardless. In short, an author tract.

There are other serious items to put into play beforehand though. First and foremost is: "Who is paying the bills?" With the party mentor dead, the base no longer really has a cash flow to call its own, so the team needs to find ways to resume making cash, or live off the land (and what of the kin then?). Then there's building influence in the cities among mortals, while working under the noses of the ruling Kin.

MagicJuggler:

What is this Starship Troopers movie you are talking about? Surely it cannot be that travesty that Paul Verheoven directed...(rolls eyes). If I recall right, soldiers couldn't vote until honorably discharged anyway; them and the scientists. Of course, there's this rather horrid fallacy that a soldier-run government could do the best of affairs for all. Look at the Third Reich's rise to power after the Weimar economy tanked bad. Goering and Hitler both had their military backgrounds, embellished though they may have been, yet we know how *that* turned out. SShip Troopers made the argument that because soldiers understood the concept of sacrifice, they could make unpopular votes if they would work in the long run, yet one can still throw out bread and circuses regardless. In short, an author tract.

Like I said, the film does not explain the the concept to the full extend.
Point is, that those who make the decisions should
- be experts on the given topic
- really invest time and personal effort to think the whole thing thou
- be honourable and perform the duties they are tasked with

Especially the last part are qualities soldiers tend to think they have. Also, there is the point that in 'Starship troopers' there are usually all ranks in the field, and, more importantly, the leaders were low rank soldiers themselves, so they possibly can relate to them.
This are all points that makes the society of Starship troupers analogue to the Garou society.

In a democracy everyone usually gets a vote, that is equally weighted as everyone else's. If the voters are to vote for a given bill directly, they usually are not experts on the topic. How could they make a educated decision or be aware of all the consequences ?
And in addition to that, all people are easily influenced. If each bill had to be presented on only one sheet of paper with no pretty pictures and all other advertising/campaigning was forbidden, maybe people would decide differently. If voters elect Congressmen to do the job of decision making for them, they trust, that these people are experts on the topics they work and vote on, they also trust these people to put their time and personal effort into thinking the whole thing through. They surely do not want their Congressman to eat snacks with the weapon lobby before jetting to play golf with the pharma industry, so they tell them, what is so great about the bill they proposed.
And that's the point. In our democratic systems politicians do swear to be honourable, but they usually were not at politician training camp to learn to be truthful, honourably working to the best of their capabilities on every topic that comes to their attention, so they can cast an educated vote to the best of their conciousness. It they are sent to politician camp, they learn rhetoric.

In the garou nation, as with starship troupers, this is not the case. There leaders are decision-maker, but they were taught to act honourable, hear everyone out, think about it. That's why they are allowed to make the decisions. And, in the garou case, why those who are not as renowned for their wisdom or honourable deeds are not allowed to make decisions.
Also, the so called "fourth branch", the media is not necessary among the garou, to check that the politicians do their job, or not. While among the humans, Paris Hilton became news, while Congressmen passing bills they do not understand, is not, among the garou nation the society lives up to res publica and during the next gathering the matter, including things done wrong are brought before the public.

MagicJuggler:

There are other serious items to put into play beforehand though. First and foremost is: "Who is paying the bills?" With the party mentor dead, the base no longer really has a cash flow to call its own, so the team needs to find ways to resume making cash, or live off the land (and what of the kin then?). Then there's building influence in the cities among mortals, while working under the noses of the ruling Kin.

Well, with the mentor dead, his money does not disappear. Is he even legally declared dead? Have the authorities investigated his death, as they should if it was, well, murder ?
The PCs might just try to find the Mentors bank access and such, to keep the money floating, depending what the mentor did to get the money. I always found Garou getting their money from Oil Rigs kind of silly.
Besides that, the Kin could also live of the land, mankind did that a couple of millennia, it would work. But would not get them any helicopter fuel.
If there is other Kin "ruling" is up to you. But building up influence might just bring the wrath of the Wedigo upon them. Settling in their territory is not a good idea.