Fate vs Free Will.

alright, here's a question that has been bugging me for a few days.

if Fate is of such importance in WoD (like in Changeling and Mage) and everything is akin to a computer program where everyone is just follow a set script, then what becomes of free will? if everything is "fated" to happen, then is a Mage know that Fate will push him to cast a spell that causes his stock to rocket up while the rest bottom out? or a certain human is abducted by a True Fae not because there is anything noteworthy (which is the prime reason why the True Fae take people) about the said person but she was simplely determined by Fate to be taken by that True Fae at that moment.

likewise, if Fate has such a big influence, a cell of Hunters beats a Eldar Vampire, it is not because of their tactics or creatively in skills but rather that they were simply Fated to do so.

all this boils down to a simple question: how big of a role does Fate play in your version of WoD. is everyone (including Mages and Changelings) completely controlled by it? slightly controlled by it with elements of Free will popping in, or is Fate just an illusion and everything is determined by Free will? 

The way I define Fate is where random circumstances have meaning and definition. Where things seem to come together in a manner which has a deeper purpose to it, almost as if a kind of narrative is playing itself out (I find Discworld to be a very good way of understanding this).

Free will still exists, taking the form of the choices that individuals make. Fate, however, defines how those choices interact with one another. Free will says whether a person chooses to get into their car and take their chances in a storm in order to get to an important gathering (like their child's birthday party) but Fate determines what that choice will mean. Perhaps it will lead to a heartwarming scene where the man presents his child with a gift they will treasure their whole life. Perhaps they will get into a severe accident that will bring the family closer together.

Mages and changelings have the ability to perceive the presence and meaning of Fate, or to impose their own where there is none. This can allow them to increase the chance of something happening, but not necessarily how it will happen. The less likely it is to happen on its own, the more effort needs to be put into forcing it, and trying to control Fate selfishly can cause some form of backlash to occur. And an impossibility cannot be brought about.

Fate is something of an imprecise mistress, and fickle to boot.  She doesn't care about the specifics of what happens as long as the stories get told.  It's about the general shape of things, not the little details, though certain details might be important depending on what story is being told at the moment.  And there is always a story being told, whether you know it or not, for the world is a stage and we are but players on it.

Shock:

All this boils down to a simple question: How big of a role does Fate play in your version of  the WoD?

Who says Fate is applied before free will is?  Why can't we assume that the exercise of free will is what shapes the course of fate?

Fate is the river that your canoe is trapped in. Fate magic lets you move where the water is. On your own, you can still move within the water that's already there.

I once read a story that compared Fate, not to an immovable force, but as a peevish child.   It keeps on trying to get its way, and when people say no, it just tries another angle to get it done.   

For instance, a certain evil Scelesti is destined to fall at the hands of a bear - that could be a mage with Little Bear as his Shadow name, a physical bear, a weapon devised from a bear's body, a person that resembles a bear (like King Arthur supposedly did), etc.    Fate doesn't pick one and get vague about it, it tries all of them one after the other, and keeps on doing it until one finally works.  

Or that you're destined to kill your parents.   That could be from a mistake you made that ended up in the death of your parents (technically your fault), or because you grew up as a vicious warrior after being orphaned (Oedipus Rex), or just because they trip over your dead bones that a dog left behind in an bad spot and broke their necks.

There's no such thing as a "destined child."   There's a ton of them, and which ever one succeeds at the "fated task" is then considered the "destined" one.   Victors writing history, and all that.

Fate likes patterns, and keeps trying to fit things into those patterns.   Free will comes into play with how you act within those patterns.


Honestly, Fate is no different than modern discussions about one's Nature and Nurture controlling your actions.   Everything you do is predetermined by your physical makeup, your previous experiences, and environmental stimuli.   Where does Free Will come into these discussions?  Its everywhere.

Isator Levi:

And an impossibility cannot be brought about.

Nothing is impossible. Impossible just takes a few more phone calls.

By the way I seen mages fly all the time.

Ranger:

Nothing is impossible. Impossible just takes a few more phone calls.

I'm saving that one.

As for the question at hand: I think what's been said is pretty accurate, but here's a couple of other ways of looking at it just in case:

First, consider Scion.  In that game, Fate is a tangible force, just as in Changeling and Mage.  However, Fate guides the story that happens, and gives meaning and form to it.  Consider the metaphor (or technically, a simile) for life given in "A Wrinkle in Time" - one of the guides says that life is like a sonnet - it has a set length and a set form, but you can fit it with whatever you want to in that form.

Another thing to consider is the actual concept of Wyrd in mythology.  It was thought that Wyrd was one's destiny, but that it could be changed by a person's will.  However, it constantly came into contact with the Wyrd's of other people, places, and things.  This created conflicts in Wyrd.  Further, past AND future events could shape the Wyrd.

Fate isn't stagnant and unchanging, just stubborn.

Ranger:

Isator Levi:

And an impossibility cannot be brought about.

Nothing is impossible. Impossible just takes a few more phone calls.

By the way I seen mages fly all the time.

Depends on what you mean by impossible. I'm thinking things that are more thematically impossible rather than technically possible but astronomically unlikely.

Using Discworld as an example, one book says that there are an infinite number of parallel universes, where every possible scenario plays itself out. There is not a single one of these where Samuel Vimes would kill his wife. Thus, while technically possible, it is utterly impossible from a narrative perspective.

This is all considered without the application of magic (which breaks the normal rules), so similarly, while it is possible for people to fly with the use of magic, from a thematic point of view they are doing the impossible, which puts it out of Fate's presence. This would be why a mage can't use Fate to achieve absolutely anything that would require other Arcana.

likewise, if Fate has such a big influence, a cell of Hunters beats a Eldar Vampire, it is not because of their tactics or creatively in skills but rather that they were simply Fated to do so.

Both are possible. It's fated the hunters would train hard enough to be able to win. I'd say that's true of everything.

If you consider Fate in the same way that a good chunk of the Gaelic tribes did (They and the Norsemen liked to use the word Wyrd instead, funnily), it doesn't quite make it sound like the script of a movie.

Consider, for a moment, that you were above time and space.  You could see the whole of the universe, every moment, everywhere.  Taking such a huge step back, you could look at the Universe and see meaning.  You could see the consequences of every action, all the events that lead up to decisions, all the things that happen because of them.  You can see the paths that people took, what lead them along the way, and where their journeys end.  You could see how every single moment sends out ripples, that every action, no matter how tiny, has SOME effect on EVERY other single moment.  You sneeze, and the redistribution of mass on your world causes a very subtle change in gravity that might build upon itself until, thousands of years later somewhere else in the universe, an asteroid is thrown out of whack and kills some interplanetary society.  On a smaller scale, you could accidentally step on a butterfly, and because it doesn't help a specific species of flower to reproduce, that flower species dies out, as would every single animal that would've fed upon it thousands of years in the future.

However, this is from the perspective of someone beyond time and space.  On an individual and localized level, these fates are not preprogrammed.  Every single person (And even object) is free.  THey do what they want, what they will.  However, the universe isn't just an individual and their free will.  Everything is connected, everything has consequences and causes.  You have free will as things are happening, but you cannot escape the things that have lead you to that point, nor can you avoid the universe from reacting to your actions.  For every cause, there is effect.  Every action has a reaction.  The Universe is a closed system.

When you watch a movie for the first time, you don't know the story.  However, once the movie is finished, you see who and what all of the characters mean--You see the tiny events that lead up to the bigger plot twists and the grand ending.  You see all the little tiny events that foreshadow greater things to come.  You see what every single object and person means, and you can even see the greater meaning of the whole itself, the combination of every tiny factor and detail.  Sure, when you watched it for the first time, you almost lived through the events--Surprises surprise you, hidden factors and details are meaningless until the ending, and the characters may or may not have any importance to the plot as a whole.  Until you you finish the movie and can view the whole thing from an outsider's perspective, anything could've happened.  The characters could've made any choice, and other characters could've reacted to it in almost any way.  Every thing they did could've resulted in almost anything, and the ending could've been obvious or it could hit you from the blindside and leave you amazed in surprise.  But watching the movie a second time (Or even just reading the scripts or books that these stories are based on), all of that mystery and all of that free potential is gone--The characters make their decisions, which have consquences.  The ending isn't going to change, because the choices have been made, as have the reactions.

This is Fate.  At our scale, at an individual level, there is free will.  We are not led along by an invisible script.  However, from an outside perspective, our choices have been made.  Fate happens.  The things you do lead to other things, which lead to other things, and all of it adds up to a greater meaning and ending for everything (At least, we hope so).  Why should you choose between Fate and Free Will, when the two are the same from different perspectives?

Blunt Vorpal:

I once read a story that compared Fate, not to an immovable force, but as a peevish child.   It keeps on trying to get its way, and when people say no, it just tries another angle to get it done.   

For instance, a certain evil Scelesti is destined to fall at the hands of a bear - that could be a mage with Little Bear as his Shadow name, a physical bear, a weapon devised from a bear's body, a person that resembles a bear (like King Arthur supposedly did), etc.    Fate doesn't pick one and get vague about it, it tries all of them one after the other, and keeps on doing it until one finally works.  

I agree with this as Fate - Fate is the "must be achived" end of story, like "we will win and defeat the badguys"..

Cleverest of Things:

However, this is from the perspective of someone beyond time and space.  On an individual and localized level, these fates are not preprogrammed.  Every single person (And even object) is free.  THey do what they want, what they will.  However, the universe isn't just an individual and their free will.  Everything is connected, everything has consequences and causes.  You have free will as things are happening, but you cannot escape the things that have lead you to that point, nor can you avoid the universe from reacting to your actions.  For every cause, there is effect.  Every action has a reaction.  The Universe is a closed system.

For me, this more is about Time, not Fate. Like in Buttrefly Effect, your reactions has consequance and Time mages can repeat them to know what the consequances do.

Ophidimancer:

Fate is something of an imprecise mistress, and fickle to boot.  She doesn't care about the specifics of what happens as long as the stories get told.  It's about the general shape of things, not the little details, though certain details might be important depending on what story is being told at the moment.  And there is always a story being told, whether you know it or not, for the world is a stage and we are but players on it.

Winner. It's all about the story! In my games, there's a name for the concept known as Fate - the power behind the story that is told as part of the game. His name is Christian A, at least when I'm the storyteller. Because Fate is what the Storyteller is responsible for.

WyrdHamster:

For me, this more is about Time, not Fate. Like in Buttrefly Effect, your reactions has consequance and Time mages can repeat them to know what the consequances do.

According to the Mages, Time and Fate are related powerfully.  Fate needs time, just as Time needs Fate.  Without Time, Fate cannot express itself, or get anything done.  Without Fate, Time is just meaningless unconnected change.

For a full understanding please read:
Dancer in the Dusk and Swords at Dawn

Freewill. I wholehearted believe in this, I also believe in predestination, which is completely unknowable by finite beings and thus must be ignored. Without knowing the predestination one is unable to blame it for their own choices, and thus are accountable themselves. Those that blame predestination but they don't really know it, thus they could have thought differently but they're a person who refuses to take accountability and therefore contemptible. Ignorance of predestination is what makes freewill possible. There has been much fiction about those who can see the future or see fate, and that is what literary and cinematic work is, fiction. It is not possible to see the future or know fate. It is my belief that this is by design to make a universe where freewill and thus meaningful choices exist.

Now that is all said, now about fate in game. Please read the "Fate, not predestination" sidebar in Dancer in the Dusk, in fact the whole book Dancers in the Dusk would be a good read in you want to understand fate as intended use for the World of Darkness. Personally I love it, very well written and when combined with Swords at Dawn it is definitive of the topic as needed by storytellers and workers of fiction. Short version is what fate is for purposes of the game is a predisposition for events to unfold in recognizable pattern from stories and cliches. Things are easier when it is fated, and harder when fate is against it, but far from a guarantee, as everyone knows fate gets twisted. Fate reacts when twist too far, turning back on those who manipulate it. There are a thousand stories about this, the tale of Oedipus being a familiar story to most.