New to Hunter - Lucifuge advice

Hoping for a little advice.
I'm new to WoD and started playing Hunter recently (but not new to rpging)

My character is heading towards joining/becoming part of Lucifuge.
I know the answer may be 'it depends'--  but could I get some advice on what set of Castigations I should pick?
And which stats I should up to make the most of that set.

Similarly, which if any, are viewed as underpowered/overpriced? (be it actual affect, probability of use, cheaper merits to accomplish the same thing, whatever)

Thanks,
--Goldwillow--

Mandate of Hell, Calling Forth the Pit, and Shackles of Pandemonium will be the three Castigation Rituals that allow you to interact with Spirits, Ghosts, and Demons the most effectively.  After that, you really get into flavor.  I suggest Mark of the Beast (Spirit Slayers), Sense of the Unrighteous, and Familiar as well.

first I would get the one that's called Tongue of Babel ( I think that's the name of it) It's free and I dont think
it needs roll. Then get a demon familar alot of bang for the buck there.

Familiars are great for flavor.  Hellfire is not worth taking.  The damage from Hellfire is reproducible fairly easily with firearms, and if you really need fire the go get duct tape, a lighter, and a can of hairspray.

Tongue of Babel could be useful depending on the chronicle.  Have a conversation with your ST about it.  Say "hey, I don't want you to spoil the chronicle by telling me everything that's going to be going on, but would this Castigation be useful?  It lets me understand other languages.  I don't want to take it if I'm never going to use it, or even if it's just going to be a shortcut to things I could do anyway, but if the chronicle is going to have us rushing to decipher Aramaic codes and speaking to Latino immigrants on a regular basis then I am interested in it."

As Quality Steel stated, Shackles of Pandemonium, Calling Forth the Pit, and Mandate of Hell group well together.  Even if you don't want to be a demon-summoner, if your ST is planning a chronicle with at least a few viable targets then you could benefit from just Shackles and Mandate, leaving out Calling.  Shackles alone is good for information gathering and coercion, or for imprisoning a demon too strong to destroy.  Mandate alone is good for in-combat use, forcing an enemy to spend a couple turns attacking another enemy instead of you.  Calling alone is probably something that should not be taken.  Also, it is worth noting that Calling is just an easy way of summoning demons, and other methods which are only somewhat more difficult exist in Inferno.  Methods for trapping a demon also exist in Inferno, but they are much more difficult.  Inferno rules also allow you to make a bargain with a demon in exchange for the ability to summon demons specified by vice.  Finally, if you ever become one of the Possessed (note the capital P) then you can control weak demons with a particular vestment.  For these reasons, it is very useful to ask the ST if Inferno will be used in the chronicle, and if so then whether you might have the opportunity to make deals with demons or become Possessed, before you decide your Castigations.

There is a castigation in Night Stalkers that allows Lucifuge to raise zombies to do their bidding.  That's potentially useful and it's hard to top for flavor.

Quality Steel's suggestion of Mark of the Beast is an excellent one.  That endowment allows you to transform into a monstrous form for a few turns, giving you heightened combat abilities for the duration.  It is useful and flavorful.

Finally, Gaze of the Penitent and Sense of Unrighteousness are both potentially useful.  I personally don't favor Sense because usually if an NPC is an antagonist then the story will reveal him as such in some other way if not by using Sense.  At the most, you might just use Sense to bypass part of the story, cutting to dealing with the antagonist more quickly.  If you do that, then obviously a new story with a new antagonist will come up.

Gaze is an okay filler if you know 4/5 of your planned castigations and you're looking for that fifth.  It is fair asymmeteic combat versus a single target, but it hits some harder than others and it's not as useful in fights versus multiple targets.

Other castigations that I have not listed are still useful, but would probably not be chosen by me.

Thanks all.
A few questions based on your ideas

Re: Zombie-land (aka Normal 0 false false false MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 Abaddon's Call)
"Night Stalkers that allows Lucifuge to raise zombies to do their bidding.  That's potentially useful and it's hard to top for flavor."
...how do you fit this in roleplay-wise? ... given the PCs are suppose to be good (ish) guys fighting the evil supernatural.
... like impact on morality, interaction with others, etc. (oh don't mind me using dead people as servants, its all for the greater good and I could afford illegal aliens)

Re: Familiars
What clever uses have people found for them ('sides being pocket size spies)?

Re: Inferno
What setting is this from? It's not one of the Hunter books I know of. Is it generally viewed as compatible?

Also, any thoughts on Normal 0 false false false MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 Guilt's Bloody Trail (from Slashers)?
  Useful & worth it - or like 'Sense' the story will unfold anyway so not a big advantage?

--Goldwillow--

goldwillow:

Re: Inferno
What setting is this from? It's not one of the Hunter books I know of. Is it generally viewed as compatible?

it's the core book WoD: Inferno. it is the catch all book about anything demonic. from the Werewolf's Majinn to Vampire's Belial's Brood and everything else is in here.

it is also called the Lucifuge's Players Guide and a ST's Chronicle Guide by people on the board because the organization deals so much with the demonic.

How does raising zombies equate to the character's being the good guys? Well, in WoD, 'good' is really something of a relative term. The PC's are 'good' because they are the protagonists, there is no onus on them to be righteous or heroic, beyond player fiat.

Besides, it doesn't bother you that the guy can call up demons from Hell and order them to do his bidding but you wonder about the rightness of raising zombies? How about this, zombies that are raised by your command and completely subsumed by your will aren't going to run amok without you micromanaging them, they will. . .kinda stand there and rot. Demons, on the other hand. . .

wolfman1911:

Besides, it doesn't bother you that the guy can call up demons from Hell and order them to do his bidding but you wonder about the rightness of raising zombies? How about this, zombies that are raised by your command and completely subsumed by your will aren't going to run amok without you micromanaging them, they will. . .kinda stand there and rot. Demons, on the other hand. . .

I agree with wolfman1911.  Further, from a purely mechanical Morality rating, you should ask your storyteller if raising a corpse would be counted as a type of theft (of the corpse itself).  It the answer is yes, then it would either be petty theft or (more likely) grand larceny.  If the answer is no then the act of raising a zombie is either a sin against Morality 10 or not a sin at all.

I am inclined to think that Guilt's Bloody Trail is like Sense of Unrighteousness in that the story will unfold anyway, so you should not take it.  That having been said, Guilt can be used more aggressively than Sense.  If you suspect you know who the killer is and you have yourself an undiscovered murder scene that might not be found for many hours, you can wait until the suspect is surrounded by people he or she knows before using the ability.  Further, against adversaries with Morality greater than 1 you can attack Morality with the ability.  Not only might this give your target a derangement, but doing so might cause them to lose Damnable Certainty if they have it, as that merit has a Morality prerequisite based on their altered code.

Still, given the limit of 5 castigations, Guilt would not be on my list to take.  If you do decide to take it, check with your ST whether or not he will be ruling that you can catch diseases by licking the victim's blood.  Nobody wants to risk HIV or hepatitis every time they use an endowment.

Calling Forth the Pit is great for flavour, as are Familiar and Gaze of the Penitent.

One problem with Calling, however, is that it takes a full minute per roll. Therefore, the problem I have had is that of 20 rounds of a demon wacking on myself and the rest of the party by simply not actively resisting the attempted banishment. So, unless we're reading something wrong, it is entirely useless unless you also take the Shackles castigation to imprison the demon before you try to banish it.

As long as we're on the subject, can anyone clarify the mechanics of Calling Forth the Pit for us? We assumed that the demon could choose to resist or not. If not, then it has 20 rounds to slaughter us all before my first roll is even made. If it is forced to spend its actions resisting, then the party has 20 rounds of beating the crap out of it before our first roll is made/complete. So the question is, why would any demon not either switch into melee mode or simply flee? And if you need to imprison it first, then you're talking 2 of your 5 total castigations and 3 levels of lethal damage just for something less effective than tossing holy water at it.

The problem would also seem to exist with exorcism, which would be even worse at 5 minutes per roll.

So, any advice on if we're interpreting things wrong? Suggestions on house ruling it if we're interpeting things correctly?

C.S. Wright

C.s. Wright:

Calling Forth the Pit is great for flavour, as are Familiar and Gaze of the Penitent.

One problem with Calling, however, is that it takes a full minute per roll. Therefore, the problem I have had is that of 20 rounds of a demon wacking on myself and the rest of the party by simply not actively resisting the attempted banishment. So, unless we're reading something wrong, it is entirely useless unless you also take the Shackles castigation to imprison the demon before you try to banish it.

As long as we're on the subject, can anyone clarify the mechanics of Calling Forth the Pit for us? We assumed that the demon could choose to resist or not.

...

if you need to imprison it first, then you're talking 2 of your 5 total castigations and 3 levels of lethal damage just for something less effective than tossing holy water at it.

The problem would also seem to exist with exorcism, which would be even worse at 5 minutes per roll.

First off, even if it was forced to resist, the demon would still be able to act normally.  Resistance rolls are generally reflexive.  For this reason, I take the demon to be resisting and acting.

Your interpretation of these mechanics seems almost accurate.  There is one problem I see.  I understand Calling Forth the Pit to be a long-distance demon-affecting power.  As such, I believe that it can be used to banish a demon even from the other side of the planet.  There is no balance problem with this, as the lethal damage to the hunter is a significant cost.  However, one would obviously need to know the true name of the demon to be banished in order to attempt this.

Neither exorcism nor the banishment function of Calling Forth the Pit are intended as true combat options.  They can be used for combat, however.  Use them versus twilight enemies.  If the enemy can't manifest physically then you can banish its incorporeal ass.  If it can manifest physically, then you can force it to do so in order to defend itself, and then you can kick its corporeal ass.

Immobilizing a corporeal entity would provide more time, potentially long enough to complete the ritual if you had enough hunters holding it down.  Also, try using the Net tactic to give you time.  Handcuffs can also help, and depending on what you're fighting, stun guns and pepper spray might help.

Christiangoth:

First off, even if it was forced to resist, the demon would still be able to act normally.  Resistance rolls are generally reflexive.  For this reason, I take the demon to be resisting and acting.

To clarify, it is an extended and resisted action, wherein both the Lucifuge and the Demon race to accumulate 10 successes (although as we do it, it is a race to 10 successes more than your opponent and not just to 10 independently, so it takes a number of rolls to complete!).

So the question is also can the demon act normally if it is engaged in a battle of wills to resist being banished? And if not, can it ignore the Lucifuge for the 20 rounds (1 minute) necessary to make/complete the first roll and simply open up a can of demonic whup-ass on the party?

As for immobilizing, why not forego the castigation or even exorcism and just douse it repeatedly in holy water or smack it with a blessed item? More effective and less damaging to the party than the blood price to pay for the castigations.

Our Storyteller was concerned about the long distance interpretation for banishment, as it would make the ability overpowered in the minds of most of our troupe.

C.S. Wright

Double Post. My Bad.

Let the flaming commence! <grin>

C.S. Wright

Hellfire's only real advantage is that it provides reliable aggravated damage, something that is useful even outside of combat.  Mechanically speaking, it's performance is mostly lackluster outside of a couple of really good rolls against opponents otherwise denied their Defense.  Abbadon's Call can be supplanted by merits, for much less xp investment than a level of Castigation (any level but the first dot, any way) you can get better, more reliable, and easier to control servants.  Gaze of the Penitent would be awesome - except the target can spend a Willpower point to ignore it completely for a round. In the end, it essentially becomes a slow and cumbersome way to drain someone of Willpower, and suffers for that. I like Guilt's Bloody Trail, as was mentioned it can be used aggressively by choosing when you activate it carefully.  I agree that Sense of the Unrighteous is mostly only useful as a story mechanic, but at least it's a really cool story mechanic that you can use nearly at will.  Mark of the Beast is just burly, and goes a long way towards making many people just stop right there and call Luci's a minor template in their own right (they're not).  You get substantial physical bonuses and magic healing in a gameline where that is hard to come by.  Point for point, it might be the most potent ritual in the whole set.

ok again.
Tongue of Babel - cost: None  Roll needed: None
Understand and speak all human spoken languages. Enougth said on that.

Familiar
no cost or rolls. Familiar can become stronger.
It's like having a little buddy that is inmaterial (but can materialize)
You have a spy, servent, extra muscle.

C.s. Wright:

One problem with Calling, however, is that it takes a full minute per roll. Therefore, the problem I have had is that of 20 rounds of a demon wacking on myself and the rest of the party by simply not actively resisting the attempted banishment. So, unless we're reading something wrong, it is entirely useless unless you also take the Shackles castigation to imprison the demon before you try to banish it.