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More Fantasy (in and out of Creation) questions!

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Segev Posted: 2 Nov 2009 6:51 PM
Only one for now, but I'll probably have more. Please note that I am looking for both RAW and opinions, just kindly label each clearly and give reasons as to why if possible. Thanks in advance! (Oh, and others may feel free to add their own questions. If I happen to have an answer, I'll chime in.)

1) Fantasies allow those who submit to them to "act in ways that would not normally make sense." The example given is running across arrows in flight if that was part of a Raksha's Fantasy. Just how far does this extend? Will it allow a character who has submitted to a fantasy that "any who drink of this fountain become as strong as the Titans" to then lift an impossibly heavy boulder? Could a character in his dying health levels act normally if he were in a miasma that "keeps people moving even beyond death?" Could a Fantasy of "Any who eat of this fruit shall be healed" actually cause health levels to restore? Could one of "bathing in this dragon's blood makes you invulnerable" do just that?

If not, what happens when people submit to such Fantasies?
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As far as I understand:

Will it allow a character who has submitted to a fantasy that "any who drink of this fountain become as strong as the Titans" to then lift an impossibly heavy boulder?

If the boulder is part of the fantasy, yes. If it is a real boulder, no (unless they could do it anyway).
Could a character in his dying health levels act normally if he were in a miasma that "keeps people moving even beyond death?"

If the damage he'd taken was done by creatures in the fantasy, yes. Otherwise, no.
Could a Fantasy of "Any who eat of this fruit shall be healed" actually cause health levels to restore?

It would heal all the health levels you'd taken from things in fantasies you'd submitted to.
Could one of "bathing in this dragon's blood makes you invulnerable" do just that?

It would make you invulnerable to damage taken from things in the fantasy.

Although, I'll be honest, I'm not sure how it works when you give in to fantasies from two different Fae. Presumably it's something to do with how well they do on their shaping rolls.
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I am going to weigh in as politely disagreeing with the Wiz, although I am unable to give a better answer, I don't think the answer is no.

I am away from my books so I can't give much more than that right now. I will try later.
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I could well be wrong, as I'm not an expert on Fair Folk stuff.
But as far as I understand, Fantasies are entirely illusionary. Very good illusions, but illusions nevertheless.
Unless you're a Fair Folk in the Wyld, in which case it's a bit complex...
I should also say, that this is my interpretation, but I don't think this issue actually is addressed in GWM at all really.
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Manditory Disclaimer: These are the ruling's I'd give were I the ST, YMMV.

Graceful Wicked Masques: p. 116-117:
FANTASIES
<clip> A raksha who shapes a fantasy twists the fabric of the local Wyld and anything within it into whatever she wants. She can <insert text stating all sorts of amazing things the raksha can create and do>. She just can’t create anything with substance.

The player of the raksha creating the fantasy decides what he wishes to create... <clip> ...Ultimately, however, none of these results are anything more than illusory.

Emphasis mine.

Basically, the raksha can only use a Fantasy to manipulate the stuff of the Wyld, and may only do so to create insubstantial illusions.

In regards to how much can you get away with via Fantasy, if none of the players in the scene (both PC and NPC) are creation born and the events take palce in the Wyld, then every example you gave can be done. However, when you start doing things within creation or with the creation born about the answer quickly becomes "it depends."

From here out I'll be considering the following three situations: A) Creation Born in the Wyld, B) Raksha in Creation, C) Creation Born in Creation. 
(Note: All of my answers assume that no Shaping or Wyld defenses are envoked)

Segev:
Will it allow a character who has submitted to a fantasy that "any who drink of this fountain become as strong as the Titans" to then lift an impossibly heavy boulder?

     A) Yes.  The inanimate "boulder" from the Wyld would be assumed to automatically submit to the Fantasy
     B) Maybe.  If the boulder was created by the raksha or their [Str + Ath] pool was 1 point below the required total to lift the boulder , then yes it could be lifted. If the motes that make up the boulder are from Creation and the raksha's [Str + Ath] was more than a point below the required total, then the raksha will need to employ additional methods to lift the boulder. 
     C) Maybe. For this to work, the boulder would have to have been summoned by the raksha or the characters [Str + Ath] would need to be no more than 1 point below the required total to lift the boulder.

Segev:
Could a character in his dying health levels act normally if he were in a miasma that "keeps people moving even beyond death?"
     A) For the most part, yes. The Creation Born wouldn't die because the miasma would hold them at the brink of death prevent further damage from Wyld sources from killing them, but if a character's life was being extended by the effect they would suffer the last fatal bit of damage as they left the area. With this method they would effectively suffer from only fewer one point of wound penalties than normal - which may result in them having only a single die in all of their pools While they couldn't be killed by Wyld sources, another Creation Born could still kill them in the area. Optionally, the raksha could create force that keeps the corpse ambulatory and taking what ever actions the raksha desires or believes the person would have taken.
     B) Only if the damage that would have killed them came from another Wyld denizen. Granted, raksha can shape themselves dead and back again.
     C) No.
     
Segev:
Could a Fantasy of "Any who eat of this fruit shall be healed" actually cause health levels to restore?
     A) Yes. Provided the damage was caused by creatures or effects of the Wyld 
     B) Depends on the source of the damage. The fruit would only heal injuries incurred by other Wyld denizens. The physical manifestations of injuries caused by Creation Born could be hidden, but additional magic would be required to actually heal the damage.
     C) No. The damage is real, and Fantasies only create illusions; however, the Creation Born who ate the fruit could believe themselves healed and plausably ignore die penalties cause by pain from their wounds.

Segev:
Could one of "bathing in this dragon's blood makes you invulnerable" do just that?
     A) Yes, but only against Wyld Creatures. 
     B) Yes, but only against Wyld Creatures.
     C) Yes, but only against Wyld Creatures.

Segev:
If not, what happens when people submit to such Fantasies?
     The character gets one additional die added to their relative pools by playing along with the fantasy. In creation they'll hallucinate that the actual events transpire in a manner that matches up with the Fantasy if it is at all possible - this still won't save you from falling to your death should you try to run across a bottomless gourge using flying arrows as stepping stones.


While there are quite a few things that would be impossible to pull off using Fantasy alone, a creative and resourceful raksha could use a combination of additional tricks to either pull off these feats directly or create an illusion of these things happening that was so perfect that it ma as well have actually happened. 

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BalSeraph: Thanks for the lengthy and thought-out answer. I have...one caveat question regarding your rulings (which are nicely consistent, at the least): It states that a Raksha's Fantasy may explicitly dictate the actions of others (e.g., he could create a Fantasy that says "that Solar discovers that the Dragonblooded allies he has with him are really secret agents of the Wyld Hunt, and the Solar and the Dragonblooded fight to the death." While the Solar and the Dragonblooded can all resist the Fantasy with a willpower and stunts/magic, if they submit, their actions ARE dictated.

Hm. Answered my own question, actually. Since that behavior is within the possibilities of Creation, that works just fine, by your rulings. (I'm curious if anybody has good evidence/reason why alternative rulings would work, still.)

I do think that "cosmetic" changes or even wyld mutations should be possible...though it's still an open question. For instance, "Any man who looks into this mirror becomes a woman," should probably work if the man submits to the Fantasy. Even if the guy's Creation-born, in Creation. I do wonder at more profound changes. A Fantasy can explicitly turn one thing into another; can it turn Creation-rocks into gold? Can it turn Creation-born mortals (or even Exalts who submit to the Fantasy) into birds? Mice? (Unless the Fantasy says otherwise, said birds or mice would still be Exalted, of course, if they were before...)

While this obviously wouldn't work in Creation, could a Raksha in the Wyld shape a Fantasy of himself being the Unconquered Sun and start "Exalting" visiting Creation-born mortals as "Solars?" What would THAT look like? (Probably be a matter of whether the Solar Exalts that actually visit even think to resist the Fantasy as presented. If they submit, the "Solars" can use their perfect defenses just fine. If they don't, then the "Solars" will be baffled and heartbroken as their powers prove weak compared to those of the invading Solars.)

(I know I come off as arguing, which I'm not trying to do, but rather just exploring the edges of this rather fantastic (pun intended) power and the whys, hows, and wherefores of it.)

Finally, my expansion question: When using Veil of Glamour, would you treat the answers to all the questions about what the Fantasies shaped therein can do as if things were "in the wyld?"
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If the raksha was only using fantasy, I'd allow cosmetic changes to occur in the Wyld, but I would also allow them to carry over into Creation. The reason for this is that Fantasies can only twist the Wyld to create illusions with out substance. However, if I had a player that wanted to blow a point of Glossamer, I'd let them get away with doing so in Creation despite the fact that the RAW doesn't seem to back up that ruling.

In regards to the mirror example - if a male submited to the Fantasy, might think he had become a woman, but everyone else would still see him as being physically male and he'd still have the same genitalia that he had before looking into the mirror. Again, this is due to Fantasies being stated as only creating illusions.

In Creation, the raksha would be required to use Gossamer to make any actual changes, as the use of Gossamer brings a bit of the Wyld into Creation. As per the bold text on page 148 under the description of Gossamer "Raksha Charms cannot affect anything in Creation or any Creation-born without gossamer being spent as part of the Charms’ cost." This requirement exculdes the use of Charms employed anywhere considered "outside Creation."

Fantasies can turn one thing into another, a single success on the roll can not only kill the living but bring the dead back to life; by my reading, it unfortunately works only on things of the Wyld. Even if the raksha could use a Fantasy to turn Creation Born (mortal or Exalt) into birds or mice, they wouldn't receive the mechanical effects of their new forms - as birds they couldn't fly, and as mice they couldn't crawl into a space too small for their original body.

As for the raksha in the Wyld shaping himself in to the Unconqured Sun via Fantasy and "Exalting" various mortals who were also in the Wyld at the time... I'd say sure, why not? Provided the new "Exalt" only uses their powers in the Wyld. This particular question reminds me of The Sea of Mind. If my players were the mortals in question, I'd let them play indefinately with their fake charms under three circumstances: 1) they go no farther into Creation than a Tainted Land, 2) no other raksha got more successes than their patron on a Fantasy that would strip them of their power, and 3) they didn't run across an actual Exalt with the ability to cancel the Fantasy.  I'd actually let the false Solar Exalts use their ability trumping perfects against a REAL Exalt under the right circumstances. 

The biggest issue I see with this situationa ctually lies in what's required to make an honnest to Incarnae Exalt. Hopefully Glories will help clear up the requirements for making Exaltations.

*Rereads Veil of Glamour* No, I wouldn't just let a raksha in Creation use this charm to use Fantasy as though they were in the Wyld. The reason being is that this charm specifically creates items, though the term "item" should be taken loosely. While for the most part a raksha could utalize this charm to enact a singular Fantasy per activation, I would place limitations on what they can do with each Fantasy. For example, I would only allow them to directly affect Creation Born with the use of additional charms, but they could do pretty much everything short of directly altering a Creation Born in this manner (sex changes would be a no go, but creating a pool of metal eating magots beneath their feet is fair game). To pull off the effect of the sex changing mirror in creation, I'd proably require that either the raksha apply a Mutation to their target or use an actual Glamour Sorcery. 


And lastly, I didn't interpret you as being even slightly argumentative. Personally I'm all for exploring the edges of what an active imagination can accomplish. I think the biggest guidelines to keep in mind when dealing specifically with Fantasy are the limitations that in addition to only being able to create illusions of no real substance, it can only warp the Wyld and those things in the Wyld.

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Hm. I should point out that Translucent Dream-Sheathing Technology, which is the Charm that allows the Raksha to tie a Fantasy to a "thing" and evoke it into Creation (it's a Ring Charm), does take Gossamer. Assuming our sex-changing mirror were enchanted via this Charm, would you allow it to actually work?
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I think it's safe to say we've moved well beyond simple Fantasies and into the realm of additional tricks. If your raksha were to tie a Fantasy to something using Translucent Dream Sheathing Technology and get a Creation-Born to interact with it approperiately, the creation born would either receive a one die Wyld bonus on rolled actions that matched up with the narative or suffer at most a -4 internal penalty. 

However, were the raksha to use a combo composed of Translucent Dream Sheathing Technology and Behemoth-Forging Meditation, then they would be able to pull off effect of the sex-changing mirror while in a place that is effectively "outside Creation" enough to function as though it were the Wyld. The reason why you need both the combo and a specific location is that Behemoth-Forging Meditation is the charm that allows you to impose mutations on a Creation-Born, but it only works if the Creation-Born is encountered in the Wyld. Assuming some mortal dupe falls for the old mirror trick, I'd require the raksha to get at least 2 or 4 successes on their shaping roll. Despite the arguments various Lunar's might offer, I happen to think that physically switching genders is more than a cosmetic change and would require the raksha to produce enough shaping successes to create the equivalent of either a pox or an affliction if they wanted to mutate one sex into another.

There's a much easier way to pull off the gender switcheroo, but you'd need to have 5 dots of Style and couldn't make hanges on a regular basis. Using a Wyld Stunt to mimic the effects of a Terrestrial Circle Sorcery, roll whatever Attribute + Ability pool you can convince your ST is appropriate at a +2 difficulty - if you win the resisted roll boy becomes girl become boy. 

However, my personal favourite option would have to be Oneiromancy. For the measly cost of 1 artifact dot, and an expense of 10 uncommitted motes and a point of Gossamer once per story, you can have a cod piece that causes everyone who sees it to change genders.

While the RAW doesn't allow for it, if I had a raksha player spend a point of Gossamer I'd still probably let them use a Fantasy to change the gender of a Creation-Born even in the confines of Creation. 

We used to hate people
Now we just make fun of them
Its more effective that way

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