Just Ordered Companion & Ragnarok !!

Ok, I finally broke down and ordered both Scion Companion and Scion Ragnarok from B&N.

Companion has 2 or 3  new pantheons right with purviews. I'm not counting the WW2 stuff ppl keep talking about with the made up pantheons.

Ragnarok has a new purview or two right ? Frost ? Would the cold purview be a good one to switch the Aesir's to  ??  Everyone keeps saying Jotenblunt isn't good. Though i never had a problem with myself, but if the Frost purview is better, I just may switch it out for it. Specially if its more useful overall.

Gods from pantheons besides norse(in comp) also have frost and illusion.

As scewy as the jotenblut psp is, I still say it captures the nature of the aesir more than the frost purview. I wouldn't recommed trading it out.

Given that the Frost Giants were some of the Aesir's biggest antagonists, I don't think it would be a good fit for their PSP.  The Alternate Jotunblut from the Wiki is a pretty good replacement.

BlaineTog:

The Alternate Jotunblut from the Wiki is a pretty good replacement.

agreed, I'm using the alternate version of Jotunblut in the Wiki as the official pantheon power of the Aesir in the game I'm currently running and my players have been enjoying very much...

ABERRANT_SCION:

Ok, I finally broke down and ordered both Scion Companion and Scion Ragnarok from B&N.

Companion has 2 or 3  new pantheons right with purviews. I'm not counting the WW2 stuff ppl keep talking about with the made up pantheons.

Ragnarok has a new purview or two right ? Frost ? Would the cold purview be a good one to switch the Aesir's to  ??  Everyone keeps saying Jotenblunt isn't good. Though i never had a problem with myself, but if the Frost purview is better, I just may switch it out for it. Specially if its more useful over

They are good books. You made a good investment.

3 Pantheons, Hindu, Irish Celtic, and Chinese. There is some discussion as an example of Slavic but they only get one god, again an example.  I strongly recommend making Industry a APP assuming your not using the nationalistic pantheons. It works VERY well for forge gods.   Finally, while *I* did not do this, if you are not using the Atlanteans at all, Scire could be a good technology purview.

As mentioned, Ragnarok has Frost and Illusion. But it also has some of the most awesome, best though out boons and Knacks in the game for existing powers.

Only thing about using frost as a PSP is at least one other goddess (Cheng'e) has it as a purview, and I personally gave it to Hel as well as Uller.

I keep using Jotenblut as is, but a) allow the Animal crossovers as per Ragnarok b) have it subract from the power up time of the new War boon in Rangnarok (and also let Giants use their innate "Jotenblut" to similarly subtract from its power up time) and allow certain power stacking (Confer Knack and Immunity can beef them up, and I allow them to survive Ifrit being used on them if they are given Fire Immunity with Confer Knack).

Baron Samedi:

I keep using Jotenblut as is, but a) allow the Animal crossovers as per Ragnarok b) have it subract from the power up time of the new War boon in Rangnarok (and also let Giants use their innate "Jotenblut" to similarly subtract from its power up time) and allow certain power stacking (Confer Knack and Immunity can beef them up, and I allow them to survive Ifrit being used on them if they are given Fire Immunity with Confer Knack).

Even with these changes, personally I look at Jotenblut, then I look at Heku, Enech or Samsara and I can't help but feel somehow the person who wrote the original jotenblut wasn't on the same page as the ones who did those mentioned above.

High Quabalist:

Even with these changes, personally I look at Jotenblut, then I look at Heku, Enech or Samsara and I can't help but feel somehow the person who wrote the original jotenblut wasn't on the same page as the ones who did those mentioned above.

Well, its to be noted that Enech and Samsara were in the Companion, which could mean they're a victim of supplimentalis-powerup syndrome.  That said, I ended up fairly substantially upping the power of Jotenblut in my own houserules; among other things I really thought it shouldn't end up being progessively more a joke at the demigod and god levels of play (though even my rework may not be that exciting once you've gotten to god).

Paragon:

Well, its to be noted that Enech and Samsara were in the Companion, which could mean they're a victim of supplimentalis-powerup syndrome. 

My big problem with jotenblut is not just power (although I am of the opinion jotenblut is the worse in that deparment too)  it's about coolness factor. The others in the core succeed on delivering the coolness factor, jotenblut fails miserably in that department. Heku allows all sorts of cool stuff, Itzli has a very aztec feel, Cheval is fun, Tsokunogami  allows all sorts of useful options.

What does jotenblut do, it allows you to ghoul people (because that's exactly what it does, call it what you want. It's just WoD ghouling effects reworked into scion rules) and give them useless stat bonuses, Whoopee!

Seriously, not only does jotenblut suck powerwise, it's boring in my opinion...

High Quabalist:

Even with these changes, personally I look at Jotenblut, then I look at Heku, Enech or Samsara and I can't help but feel somehow the person who wrote the original jotenblut wasn't on the same page as the ones who did those mentioned above.

well as Paragon noted, Enech and Samsara are obviously written much later in the process.

Jotenblut is fine and dandy at Hero, frankly better then Tiayi or Itizli. For my build of an Anubis Scion (piss poor socials outside Manipulation) it is better then Heku, though certainly not across the board. It's not as good as Cheval or Arete at Hero, though both of them slip somewhat with time too, though not nearly so much as Jotenblut.  If you consider the majority of Scion games begin and end at Hero, that makes it fairly workable (I don't get that. Hero feels to me almost like a prologue, but thats probably because of the number of games that do something much like Hero level play) .  In my observation, Jotenblut really starts to fall down about Legend 6, which is not too high. So if your going into Demigod level play, that can be a problem.

Jotenblut can work for making your own personal army, especially if you have Guardian (for I Say Thee Nay!, Aegis, Confer Knack, and Confer Immunity) but even then only for certain concepts. Of course, looking at upper level Demigods, the number with a high (5+) amount of Boons in their PSP is pretty low (8 don't vs. 5 who do, or about 1 in 3 in my Legend 8 games)

All this is musing out loud. None of it is intended as real debate, as I agree Jotenblut is kinda underpowered.  I made a couple tweaks as noted, but given folks rarely focus on their PSP and it CAN be used effectively, just in a more limited way, plus there are advantages to playing Norse (very solid virtue spread, more thematic non-PSP boons then anyone else really, a whole book of your own)  I am not losing sleep.

High Quabalist:

My big problem with jotenblut is not just power (although I am of the opinion jotenblut is the worse in that deparment too)  it's about coolness factor. The others in the core succeed on delivering the coolness factor, jotenblut fails miserably in that department. Heku allows all sorts of cool stuff, Itzli has a very aztec feel, Cheval is fun, Tsokunogami  allows all sorts of useful options

I won't argue on Itzli, though I find people never buy it before Demigod. Cheval is fun, but not working on Lesser Immortals, Titanspawn, or Gods, it is more fun then directly useful, though we have had some very cunning uses of it especially once people get Met Tet.  Heku...well, Heku 1 sees a lot of use. I rarely see 2-7 get used. Tsukumo-Gami low levels is very good then it begins to fall off rapidly. Seeing 4 PCs with it, all bought it to 3 quickly, and none ever bought anything above 3. They were not just after the die adder either, I have seen 1 and 2 put to good use.

But mine is not every game. What have you seen in your game?

Baron Samedi:

but given folks rarely focus on their PSP and it CAN be used effectively, just in a more limited way, plus there are advantages to playing Norse (very solid virtue spread, more thematic non-PSP boons then anyone else really, a whole book of your own)  I am not losing sleep.

Guess that's where we differ. In the game I'm running, every player I have wants to devellop his PSP for thematic reasons. The Manitou character looked at the Yuwipi purview (thank you again to the creator, it is cool) and said "awesome!". I made a special purview for a character and he wants its. The Deva character likes Samsara. The Loa character took one look at Cheval and said cool.

But everyone looked at Jotenblut and said "Blech! Boring and uncool!" and moved on. We spent a few times looking for alternative options, then we took one look at the alternate jotenblut in the wiki and thought "why couldn't that have been in the core?"

Whenever I take a gander at the jotenblut in core I just yawn at how boring it is or groan about how unthematic it is...

High Quabalist:

Guess that's where we differ. In the game I'm running, every player I have wants to devellop his PSP for thematic reasons. The Manitou character looked at the Yuwipi purview (thank you again to the creator, it is cool) and said "awesome!". I made a special purview for a character and he wants its. The Deva character likes Samsara. The Loa character took one look at Cheval and said cool.

Interesting. In various one shot games (with the option to reuse characters) I have had 3 Devas, all took Samsara 1, but not higher. That said, all three said they would buy it up when/if they hit demigod. I think Samsara 2 was part of the problem there. Does Cheval get a lot of use, given its limitations? My dude uses it a lot, but most of his uses started with Met Tet and will end when he can no longer skinride PCs to avoid needing to make Stealth rolls or just to limit how much space the posse is taking up.

Honestly, though, if you made a special PSP up for a character, I'd wager that jacks up the chances they will use it over just reading it in a book. ;-)

High Quabalist:

Whenever I take a gander at the jotenblut in core I just yawn at how boring it is or groan about how unthematic it is...

I'll disagree that being able to empower and whip up a berserker horde is unthematic for the Aesir. It's terribly thematic. It's just not terribly useful in a game where humans are so swiftly outpaced.

eta: aside from Jotenblut being unthematic, I am not trying to debate, BTW. I am genuinely interested in your experiences, because hearing how groups work help me judge stuff. Please do not take anything I am saying as "Oh yea? Well....moron" because I truly don't intend anything I am saying as insulting.

Baron Samedi:

Please do not take anything I am saying as "Oh yea? Well....moron" because I truly don't intend anything I am saying as insulting.

never even crossed my mind that you were trying to be insulting. I understood you were asking a legitimate question.

Baron Samedi:

I am genuinely interested in your experiences, because hearing how groups work help me judge stuff.

Bear in mind that all my opinions are someone who's running scion for the first time but has long years in other RPGs so I can't claim to be an expert on scion. The PCs are all hero level but have read each of the core books and we've discussed a lot of the stuff inside

Baron Samedi:

Does Cheval get a lot of use, given its limitations? My dude uses it a lot, but most of his uses started with Met Tet and will end when he can no longer skinride PCs to avoid needing to make Stealth rolls or just to limit how much space the posse is taking up.

Cheval is great for spying in our experience. And animals are fair game, not being lesser immortals or gods.What's to stop a scion to use Cheval to look through the eyes of a fly or a rat? These are things people seem to forget. Animal allows this, but cheval seems free game for this kind of stuff too. I mean there's plenty of legends about loa inhabiting animals as well. And even if he's riding a human, there's nothing to stop him from using his supernatural charisma and manipulation when he interacts with others. So Cheval remains useful. And once you hit Ugly Mule (O.K, it's legend 11, I know) then it becomes insane...

Baron Samedi:

I'll disagree that being able to empower and whip up a berserker horde is unthematic for the Aesir. It's terribly thematic. It's just not terribly useful in a game where humans are so swiftly outpaced.

That's the problem. We've been playing vampire for years and to us it doesn't create a berzerker horde. It creates vitea addicted ghouls. The fact that you have to constantly upkeep them with blood, that they are addicted to the taste and exhibit all the classic traits of V:TM ghouls makes it feel unthematic. No only that but the giant transformation makes it look like it's some sort of mutagen or drug a la the venom drug the Character Bane from the Batman Comic's uses. Further supporting this is the fact that they are basically bound to you. This rhymes close to enslavement, very un-Aesir in our eyes considering how independence oriented viking culture was.

To us a bezerker horde power is a lot better represented by the War Purview thanks to Fury of War in Ragnarok and Riastrad in the Companion. Heck War 9 and 10 are much better representatives of the Bezerker horde then Jotenblut ever can. Just summon up a bunch of berzerkers. Even death with ghost summons can accomplish this better if you allow then to summon dead warriors.

While I'm not sure on the specifics. I've considered creating a grant bezerker fury knack for the war purview that basically works like fury of war but gives it to allies...

Baron Samedi:

Honestly, though, if you made a special PSP up for a character, I'd wager that jacks up the chances they will use it over just reading it in a book. ;-)

True but said character is not a member of the Core Pantheons or any that have been published so the question is moot since no alternative exists for him...

High Quabalist:

Bear in mind that all my opinions are someone who's running scion for the first time but has long years in other RPGs so I can't claim to be an expert on scion. The PCs are all hero level but have read each of the core books and we've discussed a lot of the stuff inside

Right. a lot of GMing experience or playing experience is certainly nothing to sneeze at.

High Quabalist:

Cheval is great for spying in our experience. And animals are fair game, not being lesser immortals or gods.What's to stop a scion to use Cheval to look through the eyes of a fly or a rat? These are things people seem to forget. Animal allows this, but cheval seems free game for this kind of stuff too. I mean there's plenty of legends about loa inhabiting animals as well. And even if he's riding a human, there's nothing to stop him from using his supernatural charisma and manipulation when he interacts with others. So Cheval remains useful. And once you hit Ugly Mule (O.K, it's legend 11, I know) then it becomes insane...

Interesting. I never even considered allowing it for general animals. They have had relics that let them combine their Cheval Boons with uses of Ride Animal (ie, they initiate Ride Animal and they can use powers like Met Tet, Mind Riding, or Team) but even that was only with their signature animal. Does it say they can somewhere in the text? I had the impression it only worked on humans and Scions of Demigod-.

Agreed supernatural Charisma or Manipulation can be used even with Cheval. The problem with Ugly Mule is by that time, your dealing with lots of Gods and Titans you still cannot possess. It's nice, but less useful then it would be at lower levels. Still, the overall usefulness goes up, even if it had taken a hit at godhood.

High Quabalist:

That's the problem. We've been playing vampire for years and to us it doesn't create a berzerker horde. It creates vitea addicted ghouls. The fact that you have to constantly upkeep them with blood, that they are addicted to the taste and exhibit all the classic traits of V:TM ghouls makes it feel unthematic. No only that but the giant transformation makes it look like it's some sort of mutagen or drug a la the venom drug the Character Bane from the Batman Comic's uses. Further supporting this is the fact that they are basically bound to you. This rhymes close to enslavement, very un-Aesir in our eyes considering how independence oriented viking culture was.

I don't really think of it in terms of V:tM. I can see the comparison, but I always thought of it like blood brothers or just something helping humans get their berserk on. If you look at it as Vampire like I suppose I can see it...I just never did, especially given how crazy Ghouls tended to be in Revised, and I mostly played Vampire in 1st ed. and Revised, 1st ed being like 17-18 years ago. Certainly, Tzimisce aside, we never used Ghouls there as warriors.

Anyway, I am gonna stick to saying its not athematic, because while you can draw parallels to V:tM, for someone who has not played it, or perhaps has not played it for an extended period, it really is not what comes to mind.

High Quabalist:

True but said character is not a member of the Core Pantheons or any that have been published so the question is moot since no alternative exists for him...

Oh yea, and there is nothing wrong with that. Just saying when you do, they are more likely to take it, as you note here.