Aggravated (Claws of the Wild) and armor?

The WoD rulebook states that it's up to the GM to decide whether aggravated damage is hindered by armor, depending on the type of attack.

In our games armor soaks damage automatically (but that's not the point), but do you think Gangrel's Protean claws bypass _modern_ armor or not? I would say they don't bypass because if they would pass flak armor, then a Gangrel could actually tear apart metal as well and that would perhaps make the Claws of the Wild a bit too good.

FYI, I play a Gangrel and some might call me a powergamer, and I still think this way :) Let me know what you think because our group can't get an agreement on the matter.

Now the reasoning behind my thinking is that although the claws deal aggravated, the attack itself is not SO magical or unholy as to cleave thru all matter.

"the vampire’s nails grow into long, fearsome talons, capable of rending bone and flesh alike."
---It's just the vampire's OWN nails (made of undead bone) that grow in length. Also the entry states "rending bone and flesh...", so at least one could speculate that if the power was meant to slice everything from flesh to armor to steel, then the writer's COULD  have stated something like "the claws also rend armor and metal..."

You said it, it's up to the Storyteller.

Personally i judge case by case, i let claws bypass most of the existing armors (and by the way i use the autosoak too).

I rule that the claws can, the rest of their fingers and hands don't.  So yes, it would be possible for them to rake their claws across a flak jacket and rip it effortlessly but that doesn't automatically mean they've ripped straight through into the wearer's chest. 
So no, someone with Claws of the Wild isn't cutting through 2 ft+ of steel and walking into a bank vault.

I've always ruled Claws of the Wild to ignore armor and durability.  Frankly, I see it almost as necessary, since Gangrel are such crappy combat characters anyway.

mplindustries:

I've always ruled Claws of the Wild to ignore armor and durability.  Frankly, I see it almost as necessary, since Gangrel are such crappy combat characters anyway.

lol

Really?  I've found them quite decent in combat.

Ophidimancer:

Really?  I've found them quite decent in combat.

Compared to what?

Daeva and Nosferatu get Vigor, which is far and away, the best combat power around (and Daeva even get Celerity, as well).  Once you've been grappled by a guy with 8+ strength, you learn not to screw around with those clans anymore.  Mekhet I would rank third in combat, actually, which seems crazy until you consider they have both Celerity and Obfuscate, which can be used to run away and just snipe at you until you die or give up.  Hell, even just Celerity alone can be used to kite with a gun ala mmos.

Then, at the bottom of the pack, you get Ventrue and Gangrel, Resilience is useful, but is not enough to make you a threat.  Both only get one serious combat power (Dominate 1 vs. Protean 3).  The Ventrue can yell "Submit!" and, well, the fight is over.  Meanwhile, Gangrel have Aggravated claws.  Hooray.  Hope you always want to dust your opponents.  And more importantly, I hope that you have any skill at all backing those claws up.  Its a shame that Vigor can immobilize you, Celerity and Obfuscate can harry you, and Dominate can incapacitate you.

I've actually had a number of long discussions about Gangrel (almost everyone I know hates them, and I really want to like them, its just hard).  I've determined that the one great strength of Protean is in its ability to avoid conflict.

Level 1: When Predator's taint comes up even, elders are going to be much less likely to fuck with you, since you've obviously got some kind of power they don't know about.

Level 2: Nothing has been more frustrating for vampire hunter pcs than this power.  "He's not in his haven!?"  Or even in actual combat, turn a corner and you're gone.  Unless they want to bomb the entire area, you're safe.

Level 3: Claws only make you 1 die better at dealing damage (and probably 0, since, you know, knives exist).  If you were going to lose before, you're still going to lose now.  The only thing different is that your enemy is going to have to spend 5 times as much blood to heal after he kills you.  Its just a deterrant.  When those claws come out, some vampires, even your clear betters, are not going to want to deal with that hassle.  Oh, and climbing can help you run away, too.

Level 4: Wolf form is just utility, but Bat form is one of the best escapes available.

Level 5: Mist is the ultimate escape.  The only power better at getting away than Protean 4 or Obfuscate 3.

So, yes, I feel like the claws need to ignore armor/durability so they have a little more functionality.

mplindustries:

Claws only make you 1 die better at dealing damage (and probably 0, since, you know, knives exist).  If you were going to lose before, you're still going to lose now.  The only thing different is that your enemy is going to have to spend 5 times as much blood to heal after he kills you.  Its just a deterrant.  When those claws come out, some vampires, even your clear betters, are not going to want to deal with that hassle.  Oh, and climbing can help you run away, too.

The way I generally find it works is that the points of aggravated damage start coming in (with the requisite description of the flesh blackening and peeling back from the wound, as it's written in The Blood) and combatants freak out and try to run away since I generally don't have characters that fight to the death in every combat.

Vigor is nasty in combat, I do admit, especially in grapples, but there's just something about the sheer nastiness of aggravated damage.  I guess you're right, it's a deterrent, but I guess think deterrence is an effective combat tactic as well.  Your guy with Vigor is going to still be doing Lethal at the most if he has a knife.  Sure it mechanically can make you dead, but it's healable with a reflexive action and it's just not as painful.

Ophidimancer:

The way I generally find it works is that the points of aggravated damage start coming in (with the requisite description of the flesh blackening and peeling back from the wound, as it's written in The Blood) and combatants freak out and try to run away since I generally don't have characters that fight to the death in every combat.

Vigor is nasty in combat, I do admit, especially in grapples, but there's just something about the sheer nastiness of aggravated damage.  I guess you're right, it's a deterrent, but I guess think deterrence is an effective combat tactic as well.  Your guy with Vigor is going to still be doing Lethal at the most if he has a knife.  Sure it mechanically can make you dead, but it's healable with a reflexive action and it's just not as painful.

No, I agree, that's why its a good deterrent.  Trust me, unless its a frenzy or a severely jonesing ghoul, nobody fights to the death.  But if someone is not deterred, (maybe they know you're physically weaker than them, or they have an easy supply of blood, or even if they just have resilience) you're just as screwed as if you hadn't used the claws.

If two characters have the same stats, but one has Vigor 3 and one has Protean 3, unless the Vigor guy gives up because he doesn't want to deal with aggravated, he'll have 3 more dice every round than the other guy.  If the thing gets into a grapple, it becomes a 6 point swing because he'll have 3 more dice and you'll have 3 less.  Protean doesn't make you better at winning the way other disciplines do, it makes you different at winning. 

Oh, and the Vigor guy will have less consequences to deal with, too, since he won't be ashing people if he does win.

mplindustries:

If two characters have the same stats, but one has Vigor 3 and one has Protean 3, unless the Vigor guy gives up because he doesn't want to deal with aggravated, he'll have 3 more dice every round than the other guy.  If the thing gets into a grapple, it becomes a 6 point swing because he'll have 3 more dice and you'll have 3 less.

Then again, though, to cause Aggravated damage someone swinging their fists would have to fill someone's health tracks three times over, and vampires can reflexively heal two of them per Vitae.

mplindustries:

Protean doesn't make you better at winning the way other disciplines do, it makes you different at winning.

I think that's what it comes down to in the end.  I think the Gangrel work for what they are and don't need to be able to ignore armor as if it were air to be effective bestial predators.

mplindustries:

I've always ruled Claws of the Wild to ignore armor and durability.

That's exactly how I also rule it as a Storyteller, from my understanding of World of Darkness p.135 and p.166.
I included a special commentary in my Disciplines Cards (available on MrGone's site) regarding the possible interpretations.

Yes, that would mean that Gangrel can claw their way through a bank vault... by inflicting damage straight into the object's Structure.

Edit: It doesn't ignore supernatural armor.

mplindustries:

Level 3: Claws only make you 1 die better at dealing damage (and probably 0, since, you know, knives exist).  If you were going to lose before, you're still going to lose now. 

And another thing, there are NO Fighting Styles that work with claws.

urdinaran:

And another thing, there are NO Fighting Styles that work with claws.

No official Fighting Style.

Again, though, I don't necessarily see Protean as a combat power, but more of a survival power.  Claws of the Wild seems more suited to convincing other predators to go away out of sheer viciousness than it is meant for protracted combat or anything like that.  I think it works fine.

While I agree that not working with most fighting styles is another excellent point against Protean 3 being good for combat, I am pretty sure there are a few that work with the claws, namely the grappling-related levels of Aikido, Grappling, and Qinna.

mplindustries:

Daeva and Nosferatu get Vigor, which is far and away, the best combat power around (and Daeva even get Celerity, as well). 

Gangrel can buy Vigor (and Celerity) too, you know?