The kiss and memory loss

Okey, so I have this player who is set on his character learning everything, a bit annoying, and the subtle hints Ive been giving him to stop doing it or it might get him killed didn't work. (Ideas are welcome to tackle this, but not the main issue here, just went a bit to get it off my chest ^^ )

Anyway his newest idea/experiment/question is how much can a victim of the kiss remembers after being bitten?

Ive searched the book, and even though Im positively sure Ive read it once, I cant find it, and not really sure how much memory would be blacked out after a vampire feeding on a mortal. I mean is it like five minutes, or the entire scene where the kiss occured or something completely different?

Furthermore, as I know my players, the following followup question will arise. Does this memory-loss affect other supernatural beings, other vampires, mages, werewolfs etc. I remember reading that vampires aren't affected by the kiss, but would rather double check with you guys.

The description from p74 of The Blood is that a combination of vampiric wiles (misdirection, manipulation, etc) and the overwhelming sensation of the kiss itself lead to the victim having a much reduced awareness of the circumstances of the kiss. Few are aware at the time of the kiss that they're being drained of blood, and this, plus self-denial, leads to them having a 'somewhat less than perfect' recollection of events.  Obviously, when you bring Dominate, drugs, etc into the equation, the potential for limiting awareness and subsequent memory retention increases.

One of the great things about the supernatural, is that it doesn't have to be scientifically consistent.  One person might forget hours of details as they get lost in the bliss of it, and one person might not forget a thing.  Effects like the Kiss are variable for a few reasons, one of which is narrative flexibility (that is, so you can have it do what you want it to do for your story).

Shaila:

Anyway his newest idea/experiment/question is how much can a victim of the kiss remembers after being bitten?

Have him learn in game that the effects aren't uniform with each person.

Shaila:

Does this memory-loss affect other supernatural beings, other vampires, mages, werewolfs etc. I remember reading that vampires aren't affected by the kiss, but would rather double check with you guys.

Prometheans and vampires are immune to the effects of the Kiss.  Other supernatural beings are subject to its effects.

While we're at it, how would you rule in the following situation:

A vampire sneaks up to a victim and feeds on her. When the person faints due to the sudden loss of blood he wakes her again. Would he be able to convince her (without the use of Dominate) that she just fainted for mundane reasons or would she remember being grabbed?

Of course she'd want to believe in a mundane explanation and be disoriented and everything, so with decent manipulation skills it should be doable. On the other hand, I figure there wouldn't be so many blood dolls if the pleasure of the Kiss was something you just forget.

It's unlikely considering that taking enough blood to lead to passing out isn't instantaneous.  There would be a few seconds of her being aware, enthralled by the Kiss, and generally not feinted.  That would be rather tough to explain away with just words.

It'd be a tough story to sell in the absence of drug use or odd circumstances, but certainly not impossible in priciple. Even if an attempt was unsuccessful, or if no attempt at explanation was made, I'd imagine the average victim would more likely suspect they were forcibly drugged or choked unconscious for some reason (perhaps sexual assault) than attacked by a vampire, though.

Zeev:

One of the great things about the supernatural, is that it doesn't have to be scientifically consistent.  One person might forget hours of details as they get lost in the bliss of it, and one person might not forget a thing.  Effects like the Kiss are variable for a few reasons, one of which is narrative flexibility (that is, so you can have it do what you want it to do for your story).

This. The way I handle it personally is that there's no memory loss at all unless the vampire takes enough blood to knock the target out, in which case there may be some, but that's the result of blood loss rather than the Kiss. Mortals almost always get lost in the Kiss, however, and aren't really aware of what's being done to them. If the Kindred is subtle, chances are the vessel will just chalk it up to a night of amazing lovemaking or an incredible kiss or great head or what-have-you. After all, Kindred usually lick the wound closed, so even if the vessel was sure she got bitten, checking it afterward would be enough to reassure her that the skin wasn't broken.

Chat Noir:

While we're at it, how would you rule in the following situation:

A vampire sneaks up to a victim and feeds on her. When the person faints due to the sudden loss of blood he wakes her again. Would he be able to convince her (without the use of Dominate) that she just fainted for mundane reasons or would she remember being grabbed?

Of course she'd want to believe in a mundane explanation and be disoriented and everything, so with decent manipulation skills it should be doable. On the other hand, I figure there wouldn't be so many blood dolls if the pleasure of the Kiss was something you just forget.

Depends on the victim. My guess is that most people who wake up in an alley with the confused impression of getting jumped and passing out will probably either assume they got mugged or that something's medically wrong. Either way may get mortal authorities involved, and that's rarely a good thing.

I've personally woken up in a lot of strange places with a lot of bizarre memories (I'm looking at you, last Saturday), and not always as a result of a substance, but never once have I chalked my situation up to vampiric influence.

I think the memory loss thing is a weird common misconception that's sprung up a few times over the years.

Basically, there's no loss of memory at all. The victim knows exactly what happened before the kiss, knows they suddenly felt really good, and unless you managed to somehow kill them (meaning, fill them with lethal), they don't normally pass out. So feeding is all about framing the context. If you want them not to remember anything leading up to the Kiss? You need drugs or Disciplines. If you want them to pass out, again, drugs are your best friend there.

I've played in games where humans always feint from being fed upon, and while I can conceive of circumstances in which that happens, it isn't terribly common.

Mendrian:

they don't normally pass out. So feeding is all about framing the context. If you want them not to remember anything leading up to the Kiss? You need drugs or Disciplines. If you want them to pass out, again, drugs are your best friend there.

well a human has 7 vitae inside them, a human has about 6 liters of blood inside them, take more than 30% they go critical, in our group we use this system:

Up to 2 Vitae - No harm comes to the Victim, they stay fully concious,
though they might feel a little exhausted, but not enough to pass out
so they might not recall what exactly happend, but depending on situation
might end up following you around (seduced feeding), or identify you for assault (forced feeding)
the kiss is too hazey for them to remember what exactly happend however.

3 to 4 Vitae - If up to 4 Vitae are taken from a Victim they usually pass out, and stay within a Coma until their body
has replenished the Blood taken, or they recieved Medical attention, low risk of the Vessel dying.
the chance of them remembering what happend is low

5 to 6 Vitae - Taking up to 6 Vitae will result in the Victims heart stopping, and has a high likliness of killing them
unless treated medically, they have no idea of whatever happened if they ever regain conciousness.

7 Vitae - The Victim is completly Blood-less, and dying, if not cared for medically they die in less than 7 Minutes (WoD Dying bleeding to death rule)
This state is required to embrace a Childe, before the 7 Minutes are up the Vampire must infuse a Vitae with
his willpower and feed it to the dying vessel to create a childe.


((although the system was more designed to stop people from taking 6 vitae and get away without killing and then just prance around a while before they need to feed again, they are much more considerered now ^^))

How does a vampire feed until someone passes out?

Doesn't passing out from damage require that all health boxes be full? Since feeding does lethal damage, wouldn't the necessary amount of blood loss mean that the person passes out and starts dying?

I think its a rather paradox system, 1 vitae 1 leathal damage, 1 liter of blood... i mean someone takes a shot for 3 lethal damage, lets say to the shoulder, he has a chance of going into shock, passing out, and unless he is one hell of a badass or a trained soldier, hes out.... realism and statistically speaking, while in wod he keeps going and going... either way, the ones being fed on are NPCs anways ;) they can pass out whenever the storyteller feels like it hehe

Shaila:

Okey, so I have this player who is set on his character learning everything, a bit annoying, and the subtle hints Ive been giving him to stop doing it or it might get him killed didn't work. (Ideas are welcome to tackle this, but not the main issue here, just went a bit to get it off my chest ^^ )

I'd like to take a moment and address this.    First of all, might I ask how this is a bad thing?   This does sound like the sort of thing that the Ordo Dracul does- is the player doing honest research as part of his character, or is he just testing you?   Or is he just being obvious about it, potentially breaking the Masquerade?    Or....?

If the player is just being annoying, here's two thoughts on how to deal: First, you can take the player aside and address the issue.   Clear communication usually resolves these issues.   Another option is to simply turn the experiments into abstractions- have him roll some dice, tell the player that his character "figures out a rough thesis," and move on.   If you don't support the experiments as part of the story, then give it minimal screen time and move on.   Killing his character is generally not the solution- OOC threats only encourages him to not take his character's life seriously.

Moepy:

well a human has 7 vitae inside them, a human has about 6 liters of blood inside them, take more than 30% they go critical, in our group we use this system:

For the record, I know it was stated somewhere that health is not directly equivalent to how much blood a person has in their body. It's how much accessible, usable blood a vampire can drink, which is not the same thing. If you do 6 points of damage to someone you haven't taken 6/7 of their blood. You've taken close to the medical limit that they can stand before harm comes to them, yes, but you haven't taken almost all their blood. That would create a nonsensical divide between health and blood.

I mean, I get what you're doing with this system you created. It's closer to oWoD and it makes it both easier and harder to feed. Easier in that you can reliably make someone pass out, you can make them forget things. It's a house rule, to be sure. But it's a common one, I think. I just don't like to let my players off that easy. You can't just grab somebody and walk away afterwards without thinking about how that person is going to frame your encounter. Harder in that vessels are more likely to die and so players will take less in a sitting.

I've always taken the RAW to mean that vampires are forced to either find willing vessels, be very careful about the contexts of their feedings, or else just not really give a crap about the Masquerade. I've always taken the thing with health to mean that there is more blood in the human body than just their health levels. I've always taken it to mean that blood is supposed to be fairly easy to get so long as you're smart about feeding. I've never had any trouble forcing moral and ethical choices, monstrous choices, into that frame work, but if you like to make your players feel the pinch a bit more I can understand that.

Shaila:

Furthermore, as I know my players, the following followup question will arise. Does this memory-loss affect other supernatural beings, other vampires, mages, werewolfs etc. I remember reading that vampires aren't affected by the kiss, but would rather double check with you guys.

The Kiss affects any living creature, which includes spirits (assuming they have a physical form).    Undead beings, such as vampires, prometheans, ghosts, and zombies, are unaffected.    Beings that are more elemental archetypes, such as the True Fae, are also unaffected.   

Purified (mummies) are an interesting case.   Their physical body is immune to the Kiss and provides no vitae, but their spirit form is succeptable to the Kiss and vamps can drain vitae from it.