The Sun Unconquered was the first too beat Malfeas in the Games of Divinity?

This was the biggest thing I had to consider.  The reason why Malfeas always won.

Hmm what about the Souls of the Yozis... I wonder of their relationship with the Games of Divinity.

DSism:

When I read the line about the UCS playing his masters in the Games, I couldn't help but think, "IT'S TIME TO DDDDDDDDDD-DUEL."

"Not so fast, Holy Tyrant!  You've activated my trap card!"

Of course, SWLIHN would just try to mind crush people.  All the time.

Adamant Siaka:

Of course, SWLIHN would just try to mind crush people.  All the time.

And Gaia would give long speeches on the Value of Friendship.

Eldagusto:

Hmm what about the Souls of the Yozis... I wonder of their relationship with the Games of Divinity.

My first Rumination on the Nature of the Games of Divinity I used it as an Enlightenment/Evolution Device.  Were the Primordials used their Multi souls all playing to advance them.

Hmmm I wonder how teamwork or ganging up works on the Games of Divinity?  Is it like monopoly or risk?  Or more like Super Chinese Checkers.

Oh and ummm I order you not to give your opinions!  *Shakes Fist impotently*

I must warn you, it may be necessary to open at least eight Chakra gates and a third eye before you can witness...

THE GAMES OF DIVINITY

Alternatively: Sol and Luna demonstrate.

Haha I wish I could make a laughing emoticon.  :p

Eldagusto:

Oh and ummm I order you not to give your opinions!  *Shakes Fist impotently*

glamourweaver:

Incarnae are quite likely just better than Primordials.  There was a reason the Geas was necessary after all.

The reason for the Geas needs to have nothing at all to do with wheter the Incarnae are weakling or not. The Geas was enforced likely because SWLIHN insisted on it after the others decided to give these creations free will. Not because She would have thought them to be a legimate threat but because she despises free will and wanted to put atleast some controls in place.

Besides this logic leads to bad places in general. If you assume that the war over the Primordials was won by superior ability of the Exalted not by surprise and the fact that Primordials reacted too slowly to properly counterattack and yet one lone Primordial who by all accounts was not even near the power of Malfeas or many others now imprisoned was a real danger even to the Exalted during the high First Age when properly prepared for war. This implies that should the Primordials been actually prepared for war the results of the war could have been quite different. They lost because they were betrayed by two of their own without whom the Gods would have failed. Now by the logic that those who usurped the Primordials place in creation are stronger individually, especially since they did preciously little to actually usurp said place the Exalted did the heavy lifting, would imply that by usurping the Solars the Dragonblooded proved that they too are individually stronger than Solars. Which is not true, Exalted is full of examples where the weaker beings usurp the stronger by betreyal the why wouldnt the same be true of the original usurpation?

Primordial war and the usurpation have many common points, both began as a surprise, both still lasted for a long while and both left creation wastly different from what it was. In both cases those usurped were imprisoned. Solars being non-sentient shards were unable to escape quite similarly to the Yozi who although sentient are bound so throughoutly that they themselves cannot shatter their prison. Solars were released by forces outside their prison, otherwise it would have been as permanent of an imprisonment as the Yozis, just like what Yozis are trying to do now with their unbound servants, break the prison from the outside.

So does the loss of Primordial war mean that the Primordials are the weaker party? I dont think so there is no presedence for that. They have their weaknesses but can hardly be called weak. Especially when compared to beings like the Incarnae. Fighting is not the only measurment of power afterall, although if Malfeas would change his soul structure similarly to the Aftershock Primordial he would likely be able to beat UCS especially since he truly aint that tough without his virtues. Malfeas totally geared for war should be what the Gods and Exalts alike fear. But as it stands the might of the Primordials surpassess anything other in print with the possible exception of the Solars, Abyssals and the Green Sun Princes. No other being could create worlds like the Creation. Afterall the creation of the Exalted, the rebellion of the Gods and the usurpation alike would not have been possible at all without a single driven Primordial. Without the Ebon Dragon there would be no concept of betreyal and non of this would have been possible. Such is the Power of even a single Primordial that it affects everything.

I agree with Possessed whole heartedly.  And with that single Post Possessed is bumped to big player of the forums to watch out for in the Eldagusto Radar.

Besides the Geas wasn't just for the Celestines, it is also for the littlest gods.  And I doubt they were much afraid of them.

From what we have seen of the Primordials if they knew they were going to become the Yozis they very much could have shattered Creation and killed the Human Stock from which Exaltations draw their champion hosts.  By the time of the War's surrender the Primordials seemed to think Surrendering was a better option.  They were not surrendering because they were backed into a corner and had no were to go.  They surrendered because they didn't think it was worth it to continue fighting.  Hell you could interpret this as actually being more mature of the Primordials because they didn't think that the Incarnae were planning on Genociding them, which they were planning on doing if it wasn't for Gaia realizing that that would of ended in disaster.

glamourweaver:

The Unconquered Sun's perfect "I'm better than you" power doesn't apply to the Games of Divinity.  That's part of its hold over him.

I would agree. IIRC, it says so in the Glories book. Also, even though the other Incarnae lead in the games sometimes, he's better than the others, most of the time. That's why Yu-Shan is mostly a sunny place. ;)

Possessed:

If you assume that the war over the Primordials was won by superior ability of the Exalted not by surprise and the fact that Primordials reacted too slowly to properly counterattack and yet one lone Primordial who by all accounts was not even near the power of Malfeas or many others now imprisoned was a real danger even to the Exalted during the high First Age when properly prepared for war. This implies that should the Primordials been actually prepared for war the results of the war could have been quite different. They lost because they were betrayed by two of their own without whom the Gods would have failed. Now by the logic that those who usurped the Primordials place in creation are stronger individually, especially since they did preciously little to actually usurp said place the Exalted did the heavy lifting, would imply that by usurping the Solars the Dragonblooded proved that they too are individually stronger than Solars. Which is not true, Exalted is full of examples where the weaker beings usurp the stronger by betreyal the why wouldnt the same be true of the original usurpation?

While I agree that one of the greatest parts of the Primordial War victory by Solars was due to surprise and numbers, I'd disagree that the Solars aren't capable of killing Primordials one-on-one. It is said that Merela killed one single-handedly (with her bare hands, at that!), and that Bright Shattered Ice also killed a Primordial whose name she then took. So these two girls kicked the asses of two Primordials by themselves.

The Aftershock War that was so deadly and yet included only one Primordial was such because the Primordial spent all those long years after the first War prepairing for the second one, and it had shed all non-combat aspects of its personality. That means that Primordials themselves aren't very combat-oriented. And they wouldn't need to be. They never fought anyone directly like they did with Exalted, they mostly Shaped their vision of the universe. They didn't have to swing weapons or attack, they were undisputed masters of Everything.

Possessed:

So does the loss of Primordial war mean that the Primordials are the weaker party? I dont think so there is no presedence for that. They have their weaknesses but can hardly be called weak. Especially when compared to beings like the Incarnae. Fighting is not the only measurment of power afterall

Exactly. They are immensely powerful, but when it comes down to pure combat prowess, and the capability to kill one's foes, the Solars are more powerful. Which they proved. :)
Solars couldn't create concepts like "Betrayal", so it makes them lesser than Primordials in the "concept-making" department, but they can kill the Ebon Dragon, which makes them more powerful in the "killing" department. Which was all the UCS needed to win the war, after all. :D

It says so in the Infernals book (or maybe Malfeas, I'm not sure) that the Yozis have no delusions about their chances of winning against a united Exalted front-which is to say "they know they would lose", but they hope that the Exalted of the world stay divided, so their Reclamation could have a chance of succeeding. :)

No one said that a Primordial was never defeated one on one.  But you are getting some things wrong.  The Merela thing was correct.  The Bright Shattered Ice thing is only partially so.  Bright Shattered Ice only killed a Primordial, she did the coup de grace.  It was the Night Caste who Sniped a Primordial with a Stealth kill that was the Second Exalt to kill a Primordial Single handedly.

Also I don't recall anywhere stating the Unconquered Sun Wins most of the time in the Games of Divinity.

As Possessed pointed out the Primordial of the After Shock War was less mighty then Malfeas.  If Malfeas performed the same stunt and recalibrated for only war the results would likely be much different.

The King of Swords:

Eldagusto:

Oh and ummm I order you not to give your opinions!  *Shakes Fist impotently*

Somehow it doesnt have the same impact when you dont really mean it :D

Rasberries!

*Shakes Fist with slightly more vigor*