Where can the "Lunar Taming Leash" lead?

Nemal:

I must be the only person on the universe who blames that relationship on Lilith :P

You're not the only one.  I think she's a poor choice of a mate.  Lunars aren't necessarily supposed to be equals, but they're supposed to at least match their Solars.  For a strong willed person like Desus, he should of had a hot-blooded Lunar to go with it.

deathmatchfm:

You're not the only one.  I think she's a poor choice of a mate.  Lunars aren't necessarily supposed to be equals, but they're supposed to at least match their Solars.  For a strong willed person like Desus, he should of had a hot-blooded Lunar to go with it.

Stab her and let her next Exaltation be a redheaded pirate captain?

deathmatchfm:

I think she's a poor choice of a mate.

Unfortunately, it is not something one can choose, as the bond is between the Exaltations, who could be empowering different personalities each time (although we do have some indication that Exaltations may have some "preferences" - The Exalted that preceded Desus was also a dick - but that is not very strong evidence)

danelsan:

(although we do have some indication that Exaltations may have some "preferences" - The Exalted that preceded Desus was also a dick - but that is not very strong evidence)

That would be horrible, if Swan turned out to be the next iconic Solar Dick.  If there were a Solar Shard which was particularly attracted to heroic assholes, Lillith would be pretty out-and-out screwed.

Unless she started... chowing down!

Rim:

That would be horrible, if Swan turned out to be the next iconic Solar Dick.  If there were a Solar Shard which was particularly attracted to heroic assholes, Lillith would be pretty out-and-out screwed.

Unless she started... chowing down!

Those high essence charms look awesome.

Nemal:

I must be the only person on the universe who blames that relationship on Lilith :P

How can you blame it on Lilith? She isn't even a person, she's a series of mental commands put in place by Desus. He doesn't even let her train the capacity to overcome those commands. She is literally incapable of going against him. Just like most people are incapable of thinking badly of Desus, because it's an Essence 7 mind rape ability he has going on all the time. Nobody could stop him. His first and greatest trick is making sure nobody thinks he needs to be stopped. He's the Paragon of the Debased Solars. He doesn't think he's doing anything wrong, he's making you think he isn't doing anything wrong, and he's corrupting everything around him to fit his personal psychosis in the meantime. And you can't stop him.

Until of course you snap, rise up in force, and jam a spear into his heart.

Odd question- without expending his own Solar UMI-shattering charms, can Desus realize that Desus is doing anything wrong?

I like the idea that Solar omni-mindrape powers become harder for the Solar themselves to resist as they grow stronger.  Sort of a 'Mind of a man, body of a God' kind of problem.

Rim:

Odd question- without expending his own Solar UMI-shattering charms, can Desus realize that Desus is doing anything wrong?

Wouldn't do anything. He's not UMI-ing himself. He's just an evil man who likes living the way he does.

I feel it necessary to point out that Sun and Moon Method and Soul-Spanning Bridge Relay are not inherently dickish. They are just like other Solar Charms in that how good or evil they are depends on how they are used.

If your Lunar Mate actually likes you and is willing to develop a stronger bond for you, they might give consent for using Sun and Moon Method on them until they've gotten around to buying up the Solar Bond background on their own. Even afterwards, this Charm will allow the Solar to find the Lunar, which can be especially useful if the Lunar needs the Solar's help.

If Soul-Spanning Bridge Relay allows the Solar to make social attacks against her Lunar Mate, it also allows her to simply relay information. The Solar isn't compelled to the use the Charm to bully and brainwash. Heck, a Solar could use it to give the Lunar peptalks.

Note that I'm not denying the hideous potential for abuse that these Charms have, but it's kind of like the hideous abuse that you can dole out with Solar Melee and Martial Arts. Let's not forget that those Charms are also very good at killing innocent people and destroying their homes.

Phylactery:

Nemal:

I must be the only person on the universe who blames that relationship on Lilith :P

You must explain this to me further.  How is it her fault she was brainwashed by irresistable Solar Charms and a built-in mind-wracking bond, again?

Well, think of it chronologically.

At the very beginning, you have Desus, who's a charming, witty, and above all nice-guy.

He meets Lilith. He falls in love with her. They're a happy couple.

Fast forward a century.

Desus is still happily married, even though he'd never before been this faithful to a woman. He's surprised, but pleasantly so.

Let's examine the Limit Breaks, though.
Desus, on occasion, just can't take it anymore, and he does some really shitty stuff. It feels liberating, but he's always left wracked with guilt afterwards- how could he even do such a thing?
Lilith, on the other hand, just... gives in, accepts that everything's her fault, and takes punishment, from anyone, without complaining. It's disturbing for Desus to see. She also Limit Breaks far more often than Desus.

It's only a matter of time till they Limit Break together. He does horrible things to her, she doesn't even complain.

This disturbs him deeply. Why wouldn't she complain? He keeps apologizing. She keeps telling him it's all right. He promises to himself he'll never do something like that again.

He keeps his promise for a very long time. But, then, it happens again. And again. Why does he keep doing this? Why doesn't she ever complain? ... could it be that she actually likes it?

He's heard about the kind of thing the older Exalted do. It used to horrify him, but maybe he could give it a try...

And she doesn't complain. She -never- complains. He asks her if something's wrong, and she seldom says anything.

So he gives it a try. It seems horrendous. She doesn't enjoy it. He firmly tells himself that he won't do it again.

Except for this one time when he catches her on Limit break...


You see the pattern.

Now, this isn't to say that this was -all- Lilith's fault. Certainly, a stronger man than Desus could've held fast to his principles and never started abusing the combination of his abuse powers and her submissive attitudes.

Yet, I still like Desus better than Lilith. Desus might have been a bastard, but at least he was an ambitious one- and that's a trait I can relate to. Lilith's just... sad. I don't know of any achievements to her name or any personality traits of her to admire or relate to. If she'd spent, say, one Willpower every season to shake off Desus' mental influence, she would've been clean centuries ago. It's not -hard- to spend two experience to change your Motivation, especially when your Motivation is to please someone who's been dead for ages.

Desus, like most elders in the setting, is a hero-turned-villain. He could've been redeemed, or he could've been killed, but either way he inspires admiration (and revulsion, certainly). Lilith, on the other hand... seems like a waste of an Exaltation, and if Desus' partner had been someone else, this story would've been very different.


Honestly, I think it's a big part of why he kept having affairs with Shattered Ice. At least the latter had the spine to tell him "no" when he offered to re-wire her brains.

Inugami:

Lots of truth

What this man said!

I'm pretty sure when you have a relationship where one person does the hitting, and the other does the getting-hit, the primary fault is not on the one getting hit.  I'm not saying they're perfect, or a moral paragon, or that it isn't dumb not to high-tail it out of there... but they're not the one doing the hitting.  That, uh, that counts for a lot.

And we have absolutely no idea when in the Desus/Lilith process he first started implanting those cheery mind controls.  A lot of them are possible at Essence 2-3.  By the first time he hit her, she may have been literally incapable of saying anything back.

Which, again, if we don't know... I think the moral culpability falls on the guy inflicting mind control.

Nemal:

Inugami:

Lots of truth

What this man said!

But to further qualify what I said, even if the Charms are not inherently evil, you seem to only really get the full bang for your buck when using them to dominate your Lunar Mate.

Solars should easily have other options for locating anyone and talking to anyone they're linked to regardless of distance.

Nemal:

<lots of stuff>