Mom/Dad

Okay, fair enough. But let me askyou this. What part of "min-max" inherently says "I have no interest in story or roleplaying"? Why can't having an optimised character say "I want to roleplay and enjoy the story as much as the next guy, but when the crap hits the fan and the dice need to hit the table, I want my character to be effective at what he/she does."

I don't know, maybe may introduction to role-playing was different. But my own experience at home with minmaxer and powergamers time and again has shown me that the system you use to introduce a new player has nothing to do with wether any person will be a powergamer or not.

From my experience, players that will turn into this will generally come from people were introduced to fantasy in a manner that cultivates the mentality that the object is to beat the game not play a story,. This mostly comes up with people who got a first taste of fantasy or rpgs with certain video games where they try and beat the game rather then go through the story an enjoy. You know these players, the guys who absolutely must have that exact sword of doom to beat the boss without taking a single point of damage who scroll over story scenes without even paying attention. They move to the table and they transpose this mentality, seeing the ST as the computer to beat and the system as the stat engine to max out their characters.

When I encounter these people, it doesn't matter if they started with white-wolf or dnd or anything else. They'll inevitably min-max. In old wod, they'll buy maximum flaws to max out potence, celerity and thaumaturgy. They'll ask for bloodlines like true brujah and whatever else, just to get the best combos possible. In DnD they always play characters with builds in many, spawning characters with no personality.

Our group doesn't take in power gamers because they bore us to tears and they take away the fun in the game whatever we want to play. But in all cases, it seems that what creates them is always this idea that they have to beat the game.

blaster219:

Okay, fair enough. But let me askyou this. What part of "min-max" inherently says "I have no interest in story or roleplaying"? Why can't having an optimised character say "I want to roleplay and enjoy the story as much as the next guy, but when the crap hits the fan and the dice need to hit the table, I want my character to be effective at what he/she does."

And before you say that such a player doesn't exist, you're looking at one

Because there's a difference between playing an effective character and being a powergammer. The powergamer creates a character for no other reason then to overcome whatever is thrown at them, without regard to role-playing and building a collective story.

The person who makes an effective character starts with a role-playing concept then puts in the points to make it happen and make it viable within the concept of the story.

So say you want to play a physical character in scion. The powergamer will just pick the god with the best boons and epics and crunch everything to be as powerful as possible, with little to no attention to storytelling. The other making his character effective will first think of a background and concentrate on the story, then when he assigns a character sheet, he takes the points to make his physical character work within what he wants to play.

blaster219:

Okay, fair enough. But let me askyou this. What part of "min-max" inherently says "I have no interest in story or roleplaying"? Why can't having an optimised character say "I want to roleplay and enjoy the story as much as the next guy, but when the crap hits the fan and the dice need to hit the table, I want my character to be effective at what he/she does."

There is nothing wrong with wanting to be effective especially in a game like Scion. We have people who put togather some people badass in their idiom easily.  The mains question are:

1) Are you interested in the other players and GM's fun, as well as your own?
2) If the GM did not want to let a rules exploit stand and changed it, would you be upset or cool with it?
3) Do you want to "beat" the other PCs in your AoC, or be effective?
4) Do you always make every combat PC max in the 3 Epic Physicals, or do your combat monsters look different in different games?
5) Army of One: Every Battle you have Legend for it, or when dramatically necessary/awesome (in more minds then just yours)
6) or to put it another way, just because you can, does that mean you should?
7) Does the GM have to make special allowances for you vs. every other player time after time?

Its the answers to these kinds of questions.  If you look at some of the PCs I have posted here, some are pretty tricked out. None are designed to break the game. I have players who make social dynamos or physical badasses. The two keys are they are not out to break the system, they are out to make effective characters with personality and story.  If something is problematic, we go over what to do with it, and my players wont throw a fuss. They want the story to be interesting. And in Scion, a character that is not badass at something is not interesting, though they may be awful in combat and still have their strengths. If your worry is about making effective characters, I would have no issue with such. It's people who want to make totally minmaxed characters AND are not worried about breaking the game, or messing with other peoples fun, I have no time for. Although ideally, I prefer people not pick parents based on the numbers, but for what is thematic for the character.

I just wanted to chime in to express High Quabalist has good points and probably said what I was trying to say better.

High Quabalist:

Because there's a difference between playing an effective character and being a powergammer. The powergamer creates a character for no other reason then to overcome whatever is thrown at them, without regard to role-playing and building a collective story.

The person who makes an effective character starts with a role-playing concept then puts in the points to make it happen and make it viable within the concept of the story.

So say you want to play a physical character in scion. The powergamer will just pick the god with the best boons and epics and crunch everything to be as powerful as possible, with little to no attention to storytelling. The other making his character effective will first think of a background and concentrate on the story, then when he assigns a character sheet, he takes the points to make his physical character work within what he wants to play.

There is no effective difference between creating an effective character and being a powergamer. A powergamer creates a character to have the best chances to overcome whatever is thrown at them with regards to the collective story. He has to pay attention to the collective story because no character can be good at everything.
The person who makes an effective character can start with a roleplay concept then try to make it happen and be viable but he is often better served by taking the god with the best boons and epics and crunch everything to be as powerful as possible and then write a concept around that. It is often easier to explain why you can do something (hence why you are effective) then to try to ask why you can't when you are supposed to be effective.
Powergaming does not preclude having a good concept or roleplay. Powergaming is how you create a character, roleplaying is how you play it. Saying good gaming (powergaming, number crunching, minmaxing) is bad roleplay is simply as silly as saying good roleplay is bad gaming.

High Quabalist:

When I encounter these people, it doesn't matter if they started with white-wolf or dnd or anything else. They'll inevitably min-max. In old wod, they'll buy maximum flaws to max out potence, celerity and thaumaturgy. They'll ask for bloodlines like true brujah and whatever else, just to get the best combos possible. In DnD they always play characters with builds in many, spawning characters with no personality.

Yes, you're completely right about this.  But I find that more white wolf players tend to shun these players, making them far less common in the system.  While dnd can embrace them.   On the same token, I do play in a Dnd game(one of the few games people will let me play in and not have to ST), and we get some awesome roleplaying done in it even though the system doesnt lend itself to that at all anymore.

Actually have one of my scion games friday nights so I missed most of this.  HQ and Baron did a great job of explaining my opinion though;  Baron's list especially is a great list of questions.

As an aside, I'm a recovering power gamer.  Although I've been on the wagon for 12 years or so, I spent my teens number crunching with my friends, computer guys and math nerds.  Then in college joined a different gaming group, played a lot more white wolf and realized what good rpgs should be. 

There are great outlets for powergaming:  video games are great for it, WoW especially so, but adding it to your tabletop rpgs just seems like a waste of everyones time.  Save your powergaming for when you're alone, and when your with people enjoy the experience of being with them and creating a story together.

toturi:

There is no effective difference between creating an effective character and being a powergamer.

You are entirely missing the distinction:

Wow are High Quabalist, BlaineTog, Lambach and I all firmly agreeing with each other on something besides lovin' Scion? :D

Awesome.

Baron Samedi:

Wow are High Quabalist, BlaineTog, Lambach and I all firmly agreeing with each other on something besides lovin' Scion? :D

Awesome.

Oh no.  Oh no oh no.  I used up my Prophesy roll for the Story last night and there was some symbolism about a quartet of voices suddenly syncing into a harmony, and then a glass sphere painted up like the Earth shattered into a bajillion pieces.

Baron Samedi:

Unless you consider Arete like 24 purviews, which really it kinda is. Then the Greeks dominate everyone.

Well, them and the Tuatha, who have Geasa (Potent Ability Geas are the best, particularly if you plan on playing your character in a certain way anyway)

Folly:

Well, them and the Tuatha, who have Geasa (Potent Ability Geas are the best, particularly if you plan on playing your character in a certain way anyway)

You don't really buy Enech up in individual lines though. The Ability Geasa are good, though thus far considering how hard they can backfire, people have been kinda averse to getting them in my game. Because boy can they make your life hell if you do something wrong, and Fate does not care if you have no choice.  But yes, they are good.

Baron Samedi:

Wow are High Quabalist, BlaineTog, Lambach and I all firmly agreeing with each other on something besides lovin' Scion?

Tis a sign that the Seventh World is coming, the Aztecs were right!

Baron Samedi:

Wow are High Quabalist, BlaineTog, Lambach and I all firmly agreeing with each other on something besides lovin' Scion? :D

Awesome.

I think this may have been mentioned in Ragnarok as a sign of the beginning of the end. All we need now is for Balder to die.