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World of Darkness MMO!
Haunters
Saturday, September 25, 2010 1:09:13 AM(UTC)

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Telperion
Saturday, September 25, 2010 1:45:33 AM(UTC)

Nice.

Hitting a little heavy with sound track + heavy rain, but other than that I thought it was quite nice.

And, it's going to be VtM? Well, guess that was kinda inevitable...
Dreams die just like people
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tsuyoshikentsu
Saturday, September 25, 2010 2:22:35 AM(UTC)
For all of the reasons that I think that V:tM was a horrible, horrible RPG setting, I think it will make a great MMO.



My main objection was always that, as a ST, my characters either could do nothing to affect the metaplot or I'd have to basically make up an entirely new metaplot all on my own.  But in an MMO, what you want is a metaplot that's incredibly developed with little tiny things to explore, and characters who aren't individually strong enough to change the world in drastic ways.  (As that would make the game practically impossible to maintain.)



I'm actually kind of psyched.

xiongrey
Saturday, September 25, 2010 5:53:11 AM(UTC)

I must say that I am a little disappointing that that it isn't nWoD, and a little disappointing that it (or so it seems) will be V:tM only. However I already knew that what I wanted was hardly doable and the new setting is way too open anyway for a story driven MMO (Although, if it is the REAL same setting, I hope that the "end of the world" wont kill us).



I am actually REALLY excited about it especially now that I have seen this video.



(I still hope that some of the other races will make at least cameos)

Sgt Jacobs
Saturday, September 25, 2010 7:19:16 AM(UTC)
Tzimiscie for the win!
LordOfAsh
Saturday, September 25, 2010 7:30:41 AM(UTC)

VtM? Odd choice I would have thought considering the investment that has been made in VtR. I am a fan of VtM but the VtR is an improvement on it. I would be disappointed if it was in fact VtM. Is this certain? I didn't see anything VtM specific in the trailer.

Lost_Heretic
Saturday, September 25, 2010 7:57:00 AM(UTC)

"LordOfAsh" wrote:
VtM? Odd choice I would have thought considering the investment that has been made in VtR. I am a fan of VtM but the VtR is an improvement on it. I would be disappointed if it was in fact VtM. Is this certain? I didn't see anything VtM specific in the trailer.


I'm 100% surprised by this and extremely excited. 

It kind of makes sense, though. Despite Masquerade being dead for six years, it still gets more search hits than Requiem - just check Wikipedia as an example.

And yes, Russell Bailey has confirmed the MMO is VtM based. Check it: Special Report from Grand Masquerade

We also have a podcast episode up with all the World of Darkness Online facts so far: Darker Days Radio Episode #24 (Segments is 40 minutes long, towards the end)
Darker Days Radio - The World of Darkness Podcast
Scionic
Saturday, September 25, 2010 8:25:18 AM(UTC)
I hate to be the voice of negativity here, but I feel very "meh" on this.  I was really hoping for an announcement with some bite to it (hey, it sounded clever while I typed it).  This is no slam against the WW/CCP crew that's worked so hard on the WoD versions for all these years, but I've played a CCP MMO, and I really didn't like it.  It's pretty an interesting at first, but it turns monotonous really quick.  I was really hoping for some indication of the direction the company is going to be taking with it's table top business, something more than a release schedule.



And understand, I am not unhappy about the MMO, it just doesn't seem like it was worth all the build-up to the announcement.  I'll certainly play the game, and if it's good I may even stay on as a subscriber (if that is the model they use).  With that said, I am still a bit disappointed.



I also wish they had kept the modern version of the World of Darkness for this.  This seems to me like it undercuts how much emphasis the company put on the nWoD, and it feel like it retconned a giant asterisk to the end of the Time of Judgment line, which now reads "The end of the World of Darkness... until we start making video games.  Ka-ching."  I can only assume that the company felt they could make more money off the recognition of Masquerade, which sucks because it shows lack of confidence in the Requiem to sell it big.  According to Massively, it "will focus on player politics and social interaction".  That sounds to me like it's going to be a pretty chat-room, and I also don't get why the complex (and gripping) social weave of Requiem is being retrograded to the more simplistic Camarilla vs. Sabat dynamic. 



With all that said, I have a lot of faith in the people attached to this game, especially Justin Achilli,  I really hope that the game is dazzling, intriguing, and consuming.  I really hope it doesn't bite (see?  There I go being clever again).  I would still loved to have had some revelation on what I love from White Wolf so far, not what diverging paths they plan to take.



Also, Exalted kicks ass.



Also also, boobs.

Gurkhal
Saturday, September 25, 2010 8:51:10 AM(UTC)
If Justin is part of the deal there is hope that the view of the Sabbat and the Camarilla (and the other groups of Vampires like Clans, the Anarchs etc.) are not treated like monoliths but rather a more individualistic persepctive on Kindred society, and how divided they are internally.
GDragon
Saturday, September 25, 2010 8:52:55 AM(UTC)
"LordOfAsh" wrote:
VtM? Odd choice I would have thought considering the investment that has been made in VtR. I am a fan of VtM but the VtR is an improvement on it. I would be disappointed if it was in fact VtM. Is this certain? I didn't see anything VtM specific in the trailer.

Please realize this is total speculation on my part but I believe that perhaps they have set it in VtM for storyline purposes so they can progress up to Requiem.
Haunters
Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:27:16 AM(UTC)

"GDragon" wrote:
"LordOfAsh" wrote:
VtM? Odd choice I would have thought considering the investment that has been made in VtR. I am a fan of VtM but the VtR is an improvement on it. I would be disappointed if it was in fact VtM. Is this certain? I didn't see anything VtM specific in the trailer.




Please realize this is total speculation on my part but I believe that perhaps they have set it in VtM for storyline purposes so they can progress up to Requiem.






It's certain. Not to mention all the fans currently there are Tweeting "Vampire the Masquerade MMO" instead of WoD (I totally just mistyped WoW just now!).



And having Masquerade become Requiem is like having Mario rescuing Zelda. Not even the same world... wait... Nintendo is a bad example... Its like Nathan Drake (Uncharted) fighting the Gods in Kratos' stead.



Yeah, I just got a PS3... Frodo in the matrix? Ichabod Crane on a pirate ship... feh. You win, you can have your Requiem in your Masquerade (though the Camarilla never survived the fall of rome in Requiem, so it would be weird to have Masquerade evolve into Requiem).



I need coffee, none of this makes any sense.
GDragon
Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:37:02 AM(UTC)
"Haunters" wrote:
"GDragon" wrote:
"LordOfAsh" wrote:
VtM? Odd choice I would have thought considering the investment that has been made in VtR. I am a fan of VtM but the VtR is an improvement on it. I would be disappointed if it was in fact VtM. Is this certain? I didn't see anything VtM specific in the trailer.

Please realize this is total speculation on my part but I believe that perhaps they have set it in VtM for storyline purposes so they can progress up to Requiem.


It's certain. Not to mention all the fans currently there are Tweeting "Vampire the Masquerade MMO" instead of WoD (I totally just mistyped WoW just now!).

And having Masquerade become Requiem is like having Mario rescuing Zelda. Not even the same world... wait... Nintendo is a bad example... Its like Nathan Drake (Uncharted) fighting the Gods in Kratos' stead.

Yeah, I just got a PS3... Frodo in the matrix? Ichabod Crane on a pirate ship... feh. You win, you can have your Requiem in your Masquerade (though the Camarilla never survived the fall of rome in Requiem, so it would be weird to have Masquerade evolve into Requiem).

I need coffee, none of this makes any sense.

Thank you for pointing out any mistake that my speculation might have caused. I am mostly familiar with VtM but never looked into how VtR came about. I just assumed that VtR was just a storyline progression of VtM to phase it out thus my speculation. Thanks again.
Haunters
Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:45:45 AM(UTC)

"GDragon" wrote:
"Haunters" wrote:
"GDragon" wrote:
"LordOfAsh" wrote:
VtM? Odd choice I would have thought considering the investment that has been made in VtR. I am a fan of VtM but the VtR is an improvement on it. I would be disappointed if it was in fact VtM. Is this certain? I didn't see anything VtM specific in the trailer.




Please realize this is total speculation on my part but I believe that perhaps they have set it in VtM for storyline purposes so they can progress up to Requiem.






It's certain. Not to mention all the fans currently there are Tweeting "Vampire the Masquerade MMO" instead of WoD (I totally just mistyped WoW just now!).



And having Masquerade become Requiem is like having Mario rescuing Zelda. Not even the same world... wait... Nintendo is a bad example... Its like Nathan Drake (Uncharted) fighting the Gods in Kratos' stead.



Yeah, I just got a PS3... Frodo in the matrix? Ichabod Crane on a pirate ship... feh. You win, you can have your Requiem in your Masquerade (though the Camarilla never survived the fall of rome in Requiem, so it would be weird to have Masquerade evolve into Requiem).



I need coffee, none of this makes any sense.




Thank you for pointing out any mistake that my speculation might have caused. I am mostly familiar with VtM but never looked into how VtR came about. I just assumed that VtR was just a storyline progression of VtM to phase it out thus my speculation. Thanks again.






Oops. I did not mean to sound like a jerk. Lack of coffee.



I apologize.



Personally I would not mind Masquerade storyline with New World of Darkness rules.



But yeah, nothing really survived Gehenna (other than individual ST games, should they wish to).



The New World of Darkness is a new beast entirely.



I could go into more detail if you wish.

Primalflame
Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:05:46 AM(UTC)

I think Masquerade really works better as a MMO (Requiem still my tabletop choice). What I think its going to happen: 



- Its based on Masquerade, not a copy, so they'll change some things (including Clans and Disciplines)



- The Sabbat x Camarilla thing is not going to be the focus, specially because it would limit player-player interaction. The war between sects was just like WoW's Alliance x Horde.



- No Metaplot as it was first conceived, but Sandbox (character-driven setting).



- Clan as basic affiliation. Mixed Coteries will problably have the same importance they have now in Requiem. We can't say that Clan x Clan is going to be the focus  (again, it limits player-player interaction).



- They'll use Requiem's stuff (not signature things, but concepts, like Blood Potency) to improve the MMO's experience.  







  
Requiem's had seven years to grow, to move on, to develop its own identity.It has its own mood, its own themes. It's got confidence now, self-respect, a whole wardrobe of clothes that were bought because they make it feel good, rather than to impress one particular boyfriend. Requiem can go out on its own, and it can drive by Masquerade's old apartment without waking up in Masquerade's bed wondering when the hell the bra came off.
- Russell Bailey, Vampire: The Requiem Developer
BasketCase
Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:11:08 AM(UTC)

Sorry guys I just watched the trailer did i miss thee part where it said VtM?,



i didn't see anything to support it, I'm still holding out hoping it will be Requiem. 

LordOfAsh
Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:26:10 AM(UTC)

I really liked how clan and politics were separated in the NWOD and what they did with the clans. If it turns out the MMO is VtM then I would have doubts about the future of NWOD - if the game takes off does it really make sense to have two competing vampire game lines? 



Some official clarification?

Haunters
Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:30:39 AM(UTC)

"BasketCase" wrote:
Sorry guys I just watched the trailer did i miss thee part where it said VtM?,



i didn't see anything to support it, I'm still holding out hoping it will be Requiem. 






White Wolf apparently has a Twitter page:



http://twitter.com/White_Wolf_News




eddyfate
RT @criticalhits "Vampire: the Masquerade" MMO will have a focus on player politics and social interaction. #grandmasquerade


Retweeted by White_Wolf_News and 5 others

Octavius_Maximus
Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:32:03 AM(UTC)
Im sad that they picked oWoD, it seems so illogical.

NWoD is *SO* much better at portraying 'a day in the life of-' because it has no metaplot. Masquerade seemed to focus on the plot so hard that the character was only really seen in opposition to it.

NWoD threw the concept back to the player, it made it about the character which seems like a good MMORPG setting.

Oh well, i guess it could be fun, it might just be a way to use the old bloodlines, at least ill be able to play my Malkavian again.
Mendrian
Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:33:20 AM(UTC)
I am substantially disappoint.



Granted, I'm not especially surprised. When CCP merged with WW, I'm sure they were drawn by the (then) still popular V:tM line as opposed to the still-maturing Requiem license. That being said, I have often felt that Requiem is a progression from Masquerade; a world where any backstory is possible, where political interactions are 2 or 3 dimensional (as opposed to, "IM TORE'DOR, I LIKE ART" , that, while not always true, seemed true more often than not). I am sad I will never see a videogame implementation of the Circle of the Crone or various Bloodlines, to say nothing of Awakening or Forsaken. I feel like the general vibe I'm getting from oWoD fans is, "I TOLD YOU NOBODY LIKED YOUR STUPID GAME, MALKAVIANS FOREVER", which I suppose is deserved but I don't really think it's true here.



All of that being said, I will still play this like a fiend, provided it's any good. I really want to see a LARP environment in game form, and that's what it sounds like. I'm just very disappointed that the Covenants and Clans I've grown to love for their ambiguity and flexibility are being scrapped for the must more cookie-cutter Masquerade format.



But who knows. We know next to nothing at this point. I'm confident WW will surprise me. I just don't know that they have yet.

c34r34lk1ll3r
Saturday, September 25, 2010 11:13:40 AM(UTC)


I am accustomed to sleep and in my dreams to imagine the same things that lunatics imagine when awake.

Thomas Hobbes = Judge Dredd. Think about it for a second.
Grey Goose
Saturday, September 25, 2010 11:26:26 AM(UTC)

RussellBailey
Saturday, September 25, 2010 11:31:56 AM(UTC)
"LordOfAsh" wrote:
I really liked how clan and politics were separated in the NWOD and what they did with the clans. If it turns out the MMO is VtM then I would have doubts about the future of NWOD - if the game takes off does it really make sense to have two competing vampire game lines? 

Some official clarification?

When White Wolf sat down to create Vampire: The Requiem, the goal was to create the best possible face-to-face roleplaying game. The lessons learned about setting, story and mechanics from thirteen years of constant experimentation, exploration, and development were brought to bear on creating The World of Darkness.

We've been developing from that vision for six years, and it kicks ass. At this point, I've given four or five years of my life to the game. Bled for it, even, though not in a very exciting way. I'm in love.

We don't see the two generations of Vampire as competing right now. Vampire: The Requiem remains a top notch tabletop roleplaying game. World of Darkness will be a top-notch virtual world. They're both based on Vampire: The Masquerade, but their needs are different.

I can't really talk about the MMO. But I can tell you that the team is led by creators of the original game, as well as those of EVE Online. If you've got a friend at Grand Masquerade, have him thank our producer, Chris McDonough, who, among many other things, invented clans. We have Chris, Rich Thomas, and other people who helped create the first World of Darkness and the current one on board. The team that's brought you Requiem -- Justin, Eddy, and myself included, are also working on World of Darkness.

White Wolf has always been about creating the best tools for you to tell your stories. And that's exactly what we're going to keep doing.
Russell Bailey
Vampire: The Requiem Developer
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Haunters
Saturday, September 25, 2010 11:37:10 AM(UTC)

"RussellBailey" wrote:
"LordOfAsh" wrote:
I really liked how clan and politics were separated in the NWOD and what they did with the clans. If it turns out the MMO is VtM then I would have doubts about the future of NWOD - if the game takes off does it really make sense to have two competing vampire game lines? 



Some official clarification?




When White Wolf sat down to create Vampire: The Requiem, the goal was to create the best possible face-to-face roleplaying game. The lessons learned about setting, story and mechanics from thirteen years of constant experimentation, exploration, and development were brought to bear on creating The World of Darkness.




We've been developing from that vision for six years, and it kicks ass. At this point, I've given four or five years of my life to the game. Bled for it, even, though not in a very exciting way. I'm in love.




We don't see the two generations of Vampire as competing right now. Vampire: The Requiem remains a top notch tabletop roleplaying game. World of Darkness will be a top-notch virtual world. They're both based on Vampire: The Masquerade, but their needs are different.




I can't really talk about the MMO. But I can tell you that the team is led by creators of the original game, as well as those of EVE Online. If you've got a friend at Grand Masquerade, have him thank our producer, Chris McDonough, who, among many other things, invented clans. We have Chris, Rich Thomas, and other people who helped create the first World of Darkness and the current one on board. The team that's brought you Requiem -- Justin, Eddy, and myself included, are also working on World of Darkness.




White Wolf has always been about creating the best tools for you to tell your stories. And that's exactly what we're going to keep doing.






Why isn't there a Like button?! :-D
LordOfAsh
Saturday, September 25, 2010 11:54:26 AM(UTC)







"RussellBailey" wrote:
"LordOfAsh" wrote:
I really liked how clan and politics were separated in the NWOD and what they did with the clans. If it turns out the MMO is VtM then I would have doubts about the future of NWOD - if the game takes off does it really make sense to have two competing vampire game lines? 



Some official clarification?




When White Wolf sat down to create Vampire: The Requiem, the goal was to create the best possible face-to-face roleplaying game. The lessons learned about setting, story and mechanics from thirteen years of constant experimentation, exploration, and development were brought to bear on creating The World of Darkness.




We've been developing from that vision for six years, and it kicks ass. At this point, I've given four or five years of my life to the game. Bled for it, even, though not in a very exciting way. I'm in love.




We don't see the two generations of Vampire as competing right now. Vampire: The Requiem remains a top notch tabletop roleplaying game. World of Darkness will be a top-notch virtual world. They're both based on Vampire: The Masquerade, but their needs are different.




I can't really talk about the MMO. But I can tell you that the team is led by creators of the original game, as well as those of EVE Online. If you've got a friend at Grand Masquerade, have him thank our producer, Chris McDonough, who, among many other things, invented clans. We have Chris, Rich Thomas, and other people who helped create the first World of Darkness and the current one on board. The team that's brought you Requiem -- Justin, Eddy, and myself included, are also working on World of Darkness.




White Wolf has always been about creating the best tools for you to tell your stories. And that's exactly what we're going to keep doing.





Thanks for the quick response. In another thread on these forums I mentioned that it would be possible to keep the clans and covenants of VtR and wrap them in a VtM metaplot which I would actually like (Gehenna, Jyhad). However, I also mention that it would not make sense for the same company to support to two competing game lines, one with an MMO fanbase. If the MMO really takes off would it really make business sense for White Wolf to avoid making/republishing a tabletop version of it? BUT, like I said, there is no reason the NWOD setting couldn't be meshed with a VtM setting.



I was a huge fan of VtM but VtR is better and looking around the responses on these forums I am not alone in thinking this way.

NYNosferatu
Saturday, September 25, 2010 11:56:17 AM(UTC)
"RussellBailey" wrote:

We don't see the two generations of Vampire as competing right now. Vampire: The Requiem remains a top notch tabletop roleplaying game. World of Darkness will be a top-notch virtual world.






Exactamundo.

Centimanus
Saturday, September 25, 2010 12:15:11 PM(UTC)
Finally we have something cool to look at!!!  Any word on whether or not there will be a release date coming?
Renfield286
Saturday, September 25, 2010 12:19:02 PM(UTC)

"LordOfAsh" wrote:
VtM? Odd choice I would have thought considering the investment that has been made in VtR. I am a fan of VtM but the VtR is an improvement on it. I would be disappointed if it was in fact VtM. Is this certain? I didn't see anything VtM specific in the trailer.

From Don Stroodle's Sky is falling post
"RussellBailey" wrote:
White Wolf is continuing to develop and publish material for the current World of Darkness.

We are also developing a massively multiplayer game, World of Darkness, rooted in Vampire: The Masquerade.

We're doing both these things. If we weren't, I might actually sleep occasionally.

EDIT: Russell beat me to it, I should really read these things through before replying. 
Mostly harmless
darkor
Saturday, September 25, 2010 12:38:53 PM(UTC)

"RussellBailey" wrote:
When White Wolf sat down to create Vampire: The Requiem, the goal was to create the best possible face-to-face roleplaying game. The lessons learned about setting, story and mechanics from thirteen years of constant experimentation, exploration, and development were brought to bear on creating The World of Darkness.

We've been developing from that vision for six years, and it kicks ass. At this point, I've given four or five years of my life to the game. Bled for it, even, though not in a very exciting way. I'm in love.

We don't see the two generations of Vampire as competing right now. Vampire: The Requiem remains a top notch tabletop roleplaying game. World of Darkness will be a top-notch virtual world. They're both based on Vampire: The Masquerade, but their needs are different.

I can't really talk about the MMO. But I can tell you that the team is led by creators of the original game, as well as those of EVE Online. If you've got a friend at Grand Masquerade, have him thank our producer, Chris McDonough, who, among many other things, invented clans. We have Chris, Rich Thomas, and other people who helped create the first World of Darkness and the current one on board. The team that's brought you Requiem -- Justin, Eddy, and myself included, are also working on World of Darkness.

White Wolf has always been about creating the best tools for you to tell your stories. And that's exactly what we're going to keep doing.

Russell... I love! You just made my day (with the help of the video).
GDragon
Saturday, September 25, 2010 1:22:26 PM(UTC)
"Centimanus" wrote:
Any word on whether or not there will be a release date coming?

I am hearing at the earliest it will be around 2012. Also hearing that the MMO will have a focus on player politics and social interaction.

Perhaps official clarification can confirm
TiwazTyrsfist
Saturday, September 25, 2010 1:27:13 PM(UTC)
I'd just like to say, for those who are concerned, that the MMO being OWoD will almost certainly have no effect on the Pen & Paper RPG.



What proof you say?



Let's look at two examples, one from each side.



When D&D Online came out, with 3.5 rules and in the Eberron setting, this didn't extend 3.5's life span.  It still died and went into 4th edition.  Eberron didn't become the primary setting.  4th edition runs a different setting, and Eberron wasn't even released until the second year.

"But" you say,. "D&D Online was a flop!"

A good point.

So let's look at the other side.



World of Warcraft, arguably the most popular MMO to date (lineage may contest this), has a Pen & Paper RPG.

RPG books QUICKLY diverged from the MMO.  When they planned to expand the game, they changed meta-plot, added new races, added classes and powers, and when classes powers were changed in the MMO, the P&P Games did not follow the rules changes.

At this point, the P&P rules and the MMO rules are so different that they only share background plot at this point.







Finally, the crossover between MMO gamers and P&P gamers is a lot smaller than you seem to think.  Those people who play both MMO's and P&P RPGs ALREADY PLAY BOTH.  Even if a hundred million people buy the WoD MMO and come to love it, only those who already play P&P RPGs will play P&P RPGs, and they already know Old and New WoD.

And, last but not least, since WW's back catalog will be up for purchase Print-on-Demand BEFORE the MMO comes online, at least according to what I've heard so far, support for OWoD P&P RPGs will be readily available when and if MMO gamers suddenly desire it.

GDragon
Saturday, September 25, 2010 1:33:34 PM(UTC)
"TiwazTyrsfist" wrote:
And, last but not least, since WW's back catalog will be up for purchase Print-on-Demand BEFORE the MMO comes online, at least according to what I've heard so far, support for OWoD P&P RPGs will be readily available when and if MMO gamers suddenly desire it.

Regarding VtM:

Quote:
At the White Wolf Camarilla meeting in October 2009 it was decided to re-support this game system both in the official Camarilla fan club and outside to Table Top players.

Zakariya Bey
Saturday, September 25, 2010 1:47:08 PM(UTC)
Interesting. Somewhat unexpected, though it does perhaps explain why WW was a little odd about handling the oWoD. Given the time and money they've invested in the nWoD - and the fact that it would be easier to adapt into a game setting imho - its a bit surprising. But I suppose that the oWoD has more name recognition.



A couple other factors to keep in mind...



I would argue that the oWoD doesn't necessarily have more depth, but it has more flavor. They had nearly a dozen years to expand on almost every creature, splat and NPC over the course of decade long metaplot development. Sure, there are lots of interesting NPCs and splats in the nWoD, BUT the model has always been to avoid mentioning things in other books. Some get a little more love (like the Morbus and Khaibit, for example) but most bloodlines, lodges and the like are never mentioned again.



Likewise, WW pretty much has a clean slate to work with. There are plenty of cities that weren't covered or were mentioned only in passing in the oWoD. Perhaps we will get something like Atlanta or New York, and WW can play with the metaplot to make the setting different. Keep it contested between Camarilla and Sababt so that players have lots of missions to run. They won't have to worry about some big secret or development being contradicted in a later setting book. nWoD and oWoD remain as separate entities.



I'm very curious to see how this will turn out. I suspect that it will only be BASED on V:tM and the oWoD. Perhaps they will change and get rid of (or ADD) certain things. I think that we will see most of the same Clans, Camarilla and Sabbat, Disciplines, and the like, but we might not get Paths of Enlightenment, Thaumaturgy or certain bloodlines. Or if we do perhaps they will be significantly altered to fit the setting. It's hard to say.



The Camarilla-Sabbat divide makes sense. As mentioned WoW has the Alliance and Horde. EVE Online has four respective factions. Presumably the V:tM MMO would take the same approach, and players would choose whether they wanted to be Camarilla or Sabbat. The choice of sect would allow different missions and character options. Quite frankly, I've never really liked the approach that ALL character options should be open to everyone. If you want Vicissitude, then pick Sabbat. Somethings SHOULD be Clan or Sect exclusive imho.



If we see this, I suspect that the Camarilla will have to get some new stuff just to level the playing field. One of the problems in the oWoD was that the Sabbat had waaay more diversity than the Camarilla, thanks to all the antitribu and weird bloodlines (often with their own unique Disciplines). It made the Sabbat seem more 'kewl' to a certain subset of players and led to all kinds of bad stereotypes. Perhaps the Camarilla will get some new Clans or bloolines, or they will keep Thaumaturgy (which was really a nasty advantage the sect had over the Sabbat) and make it more versatile and dangerous.



As I said before, I suspect that some of the Clans will be cut or heavily modified, if only because their nature and powers don't mesh well with video games. Supernatural strength (Potence), speed (Celerity) and resilience (Fortitude) are all pretty straight forward. Ditto for most applications of Obfuscate, Protean, Auspex, Obtenebration, Quietus and even most Thaumaturgy Paths and Rituals. Dominate, Presence and Dementation strike me as MUCH more difficult. Maybe they have certain affects on NPCs, as well as a few special attacks for other situations.



Then you have powers like Vicissitude and Chimerstry which, quite frankly, strike me as nearly impossible to adapt for an MMO. Sure, the higher levels of Vicissitude are pretty straight forward, but how do you represent changing your appearance or creating illusions? WAAAY too broad. My guess would be that the powers would be tweaked to a certain progression of pre-selected illusions or appearances. Vicissitude might take some powers closer to the Molitate Arcanos from Wraith. I don't know.



Quite frankly, I would LIKE to see the Independent Clans and certain Bloodlines, but I'm not entirley certain we will. At least, not right away. Still, I'm going to hold out hope. Of course, like I said, some Clans might be up for the chop, and the Independents are far more likely. Perhaps this setting will expand on the Week of Nightmares and make the Ravnos extinct.



One cool thing is that we at least ARE going to get some of the fun elements from the oWoD. Well we probably can't expect EVERYTHING, perhaps we will see references in passing to Carthage, Salout, Gehenna, the War of Princes, the Week of Nightmares, Soul-Eaters, Golconda, and so forth. So much fun stuff.



And, I'm holding out hope that perhaps down the road we will get more expansions. Perhaps we shall see a Werewolf: the Apocalypse expansion, a Mage: the Ascension expansion (hard to do, but possible), and so forth. I don't know if we will ever get as far as a Mummy expansion, though it would be cool, but perhaps we will at least get some of the other elements that never fully got explored in the old WoD thanks to the whole Gehenna thing.



Well, thats it for my current thoughts right about now. No doubt more to come as we learn more about the upcoming game release.

NeuroToxin
Saturday, September 25, 2010 1:50:28 PM(UTC)

"Mendrian" wrote:
Granted, I'm not especially surprised. When CCP merged with WW, I'm sure they were drawn by the (then) still popular V:tM line as opposed to the still-maturing Requiem license. That being said, I have often felt that Requiem is a progression from Masquerade; a world where any backstory is possible, where political interactions are 2 or 3 dimensional (as opposed to, "IM TORE'DOR, I LIKE ART" , that, while not always true, seemed true more often than not). I am sad I will never see a videogame implementation of the Circle of the Crone or various Bloodlines, to say nothing of Awakening or Forsaken. I feel like the general vibe I'm getting from oWoD fans is, "I TOLD YOU NOBODY LIKED YOUR STUPID GAME, MALKAVIANS FOREVER", which I suppose is deserved but I don't really think it's true here.

First off, both games have Toreadors ,only in one of them it happens to be a bloodline rather than clan. 
I'm a fan of both OWoD and NWoD and I'm hoping that the game will leave room for Player established factions that would allow players to establish the Circle of the Crone if they wish to(though Sabbat inner sects kind of fill that role already in VTM).
 probably cant have Cruac' but there are more than enough disciplines anyway.

I wonder if doing Usermade disciplines would be possiable somehow in a small way using an ingame editor similar to Spellmaking in Morrowind and Oblivion.
I mean when I look at the Disciplines in OWoD and NWoD most of them can be broken down to a combination of 5 base effects that act in varying degree:
-Buff/Debuff Effects (gives Dicepool bonus)
-Transformation Effects (Shapeshifting)
-Offensive/Defensive Effects(Deals damage dots or portect against them)
-Preception Effects (Allows you to see more information or to prevent others from seeing)
-Manipulation Effects (Controls the actions of NPCs or Players)

Mechanically most disciplines in OWoD are a combination of these effects:
For example Feral Claws allows you to deal +2 Agg Damage when unarmed
Horrid Form gives you +3 to physical attributes and debuffs Social attributes to 0 and so on...

Though if I had to guess Id say they will dumb down the discipline system or use NWoD's because otherwise it would just be too good to be true..

*Note: I have no idea how they are going to do Manipulation Effects that are found in disciplines like Dominate or Majesty


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Red Cap on 4/29/2011(UTC)
lawine
Saturday, September 25, 2010 3:57:43 PM(UTC)

I have to say I'm really torn on this. Despite reassurances that requiem will still be developed, this really feels like a slap in the face for the nwod to me. Even more so because of how many people a requiem MMO could've converted. That's essentially a wasted chance right there. I'm also thinking the Masquerade name loyalty might not be as expansive as CCP thinks, but I could be mistaken on that.



I'd really like to see some more pontification on this matter from WW people. I'd like an insight into the decision making process; why masquerade over requiem?
http://www.nokturnis.net - Online World of Darkness Chat-game.
sikker
Saturday, September 25, 2010 4:12:33 PM(UTC)

"lawine" wrote:
I'd really like to see some more pontification on this matter from WW people. I'd like an insight into the decision making process; why masquerade over requiem?


Yes. How did they reach that decision? I'm very curious, even though I'm cool with the decision. I would have prefered Requiem, and I'm worried about the future of the game once White Wolf realize that they're turning away hordes of interested buyers if they don't reprint Masquerade books. And once they start working on Masquerade, they won't have the resources to support Requiem. And even if they do, how the hell isn't that going to confuse customers?



I sense a pickle.
That said, I am a straight male who enjoys Moulin Rouge, so it's possible my argument is invalid.

DeCarabas wrote:
As for sikker, well... You do look like a psychotic running out of medicine. Which is kinda appealing.


MrMarkers
Saturday, September 25, 2010 4:43:20 PM(UTC)

"sikker" wrote:
Yes. How did they reach that decision? I'm very curious, even though I'm cool with the decision. I would have prefered Requiem, and I'm worried about the future of the game once White Wolf realize that they're turning away hordes of interested buyers if they don't reprint Masquerade books. And once they start working on Masquerade, they won't have the resources to support Requiem. And even if they do, how the hell isn't that going to confuse customers?





Consider this an MMO based on a previous series of books, or movies; the updated for the world will happen within the game. If you want to learn more about the World itself, well; they are reprinted all the OWoD books; as a Print on Demand, coming before the WoD MMO. If it get's really popular, I'd assume they might write a few new novels set in the MMO setting, but don't expect any new books for rpg OWoD, that phase of OWoD's life has passed.







With that said, if I can't play Sabbat, I'm not even going to try the game. I LARPed OWoD for 8ish years give or take and always ended up playing Cam, I'm all Cammed out, Cam is boring as hell, I'll never be unCammed out. If they are going to invest in the old setting, and use it for it's foundations, do not stick us in the remarkably overdone and boring Camarilla as neonates (does that not sound like ever game of VtM you've ever played ever, cause it is).



-Mark

Sincerely,
MrMarkers
sikker
Saturday, September 25, 2010 4:48:02 PM(UTC)

"MrMarkers" wrote:
"sikker" wrote:
Yes. How did they reach that decision? I'm very curious, even though I'm cool with the decision. I would have prefered Requiem, and I'm worried about the future of the game once White Wolf realize that they're turning away hordes of interested buyers if they don't reprint Masquerade books. And once they start working on Masquerade, they won't have the resources to support Requiem. And even if they do, how the hell isn't that going to confuse customers?





Consider this an MMO based on a previous series of books, or movies; the updated for the world will happen within the game. If you want to learn more about the World itself, well; they are reprinted all the OWoD books; as a Print on Demand, coming before the WoD MMO. If it get's really popular, I'd assume they might write a few new novels set in the MMO setting, but don't expect any new books for rpg OWoD, that phase of OWoD's life has passed.






Pretend I'm CCP. I will look at the hordes of fans at the gates yelling and screaming for an updated Masquerade book without the errors and mistakes of the decades old version. You think I say no?
That said, I am a straight male who enjoys Moulin Rouge, so it's possible my argument is invalid.

DeCarabas wrote:
As for sikker, well... You do look like a psychotic running out of medicine. Which is kinda appealing.


MrMarkers
Saturday, September 25, 2010 4:56:06 PM(UTC)

CCP is unlikely to get hordes of fans, and CCP is well aware of what it means to be a niche market. On top of that, many of the old fans are content using their old books, and we have a conversion document coming out next month that deals with transitioning the rules sets of masquerade to requiem and visa-versa. Any new fans will already have ton's of books to look into (the old ones) if they so desire to get into that angle, and then the company can always explain that, 'if you like the WoD MMO, the table top has a new version to try to.



I really see it as a non-issue; either you already have the old books (and are rather content with how complete they are), or you will need to buy them all and read them all if you're a new fan. If you want an updated version, technically that will be out next month, but just requires a little jockying around of rules, which any RPer has done plenty of times.



Sincerely,
MrMarkers
lawine
Saturday, September 25, 2010 5:01:25 PM(UTC)

I think mostly, this news just comes at a terrible time. People already went through a period of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt over the rumors regarding the PDF model, and other rumors like that thing about mage ending. While these rumors have been put to rest, I think it's still left a bit of a sour taste in the mouths of many, and this isn't helping. It may turn out the MMO will be awesome (i have high hopes that it will be), and that requiem will continue and flourish, but right now there's just so much we don't know that it's going to be hard for people to really feel as good about this as we should.
http://www.nokturnis.net - Online World of Darkness Chat-game.
Mendrian
Saturday, September 25, 2010 5:09:06 PM(UTC)
Exactly. "Please be quiet and take your medicine, it's good for you, honest", only goes so far. There comes a point where I'm forced to put evidence together on my own and when I'm told, "Look, your conclusions are overreactions, the sky is not falling, but I can't tell you why", it gets a little hard to swallow.



But again, I am willing to be surprised. I would love to be surprised. Now I'm just waiting to be surprised.

sikker
Saturday, September 25, 2010 5:10:25 PM(UTC)

"MrMarkers" wrote:
CCP is unlikely to get hordes of fans


CCP already has hordes of fans. Enough to support a large playerbase in EVE Online, their rapid expansion as a company and product line, and even support their buying/"merging with" a quite large RPG company.



"MrMarkers" wrote:
Any new fans will already have ton's of books to look into (the old ones)


The new fanbase of the magnitude you could expect from something as Average Joe Accessible(tm) as an MMO will not be sustained by a translation document or outdated, error-filled print-on-demand books from another era. They will either get a full reprint/update on-demand, or they will be turned away, unsatisfied.
That said, I am a straight male who enjoys Moulin Rouge, so it's possible my argument is invalid.

DeCarabas wrote:
As for sikker, well... You do look like a psychotic running out of medicine. Which is kinda appealing.


Fion
Saturday, September 25, 2010 5:27:33 PM(UTC)
If the rumors that the game is based on Masquerade are true, that is very odd indeed. Frankly I think Requiem is beyond the better of the two (although perhaps Masquerade is more easy to create a video game out of simply because it is a lot more black & white.)



I really was hoping the game would be World of Darkness based, and would extend to other systems. But from the rumors and this video (that really doesn't tell us anything) it looks like it's old V:tM and that's it, which would actually contradict the sparse bits and pieces we've gotten out of CCP since the merger.

MrMarkers
Saturday, September 25, 2010 5:44:15 PM(UTC)

"sikker" wrote:
CCP already has hordes of fans. Enough to support a large playerbase in EVE Online, their rapid expansion as a company and product line, and even support their buying/"merging with" a quite large RPG company.





When you look at popular MMOs EVE is a niche market. You have to look at the relative size of the markets to determine a niche. Another way to prove this is to simply look at the most anticipated MMOs in the future, as far as the mass public is concerned. SWTOR, and GW2; are both nothing like EVE, they are both theme parks, and both are more concerned with how you fit into the world rather than letting the player define it.



EVE has, and will always be a niche market, even more so as we move towards the current MMO trends. The vast majority of consumers want theme parks like WoW, and even when they scream for sandboxes, all the one's to come out in the last ten years have horribly failed.



"sikker" wrote:
The new fanbase of the magnitude you could expect from something as Average Joe Accessible(tm) as an MMO will not be sustained by a translation document or outdated, error-filled print-on-demand books from another era. They will either get a full reprint/update on-demand, or they will be turned away, unsatisfied.




Average Joe Accessible (tm) will not be playing this game, he will be playing some other theme park, the kind of player dedicated and open minded enough for a sandbox political game will be receptive to old books and translation documents; especially when they have so many nice people in the MMO who are also dealing with the same thing, and willing to help and befriend them, and teach them what they need to know for table top.
Sincerely,
MrMarkers
Gurkhal
Saturday, September 25, 2010 5:49:55 PM(UTC)
"Zakariya Bey" wrote:
The Camarilla-Sabbat divide makes sense. As mentioned WoW has the Alliance and Horde. EVE Online has four respective factions. Presumably the V:tM MMO would take the same approach, and players would choose whether they wanted to be Camarilla or Sabbat. The choice of sect would allow different missions and character options. Quite frankly, I've never really liked the approach that ALL character options should be open to everyone. If you want Vicissitude, then pick Sabbat. Somethings SHOULD be Clan or Sect exclusive imho.




Very possibly this will be the choice they make for the game. I could however also see it as being Sabbat, Camarilla and the Anarchs for membership, which adds certain restrictions and treats for the members. For example a Camarilla member who fucks up the Masquerade might be expelled or in some way punished, which would hurt a Sabbat member. And beyond that there would perhaps be an Independent faction which means that you are on your own.



Relations between groups will probably be very personal so it would be possible for one Independent Kindred to have a big crosshair on his head when the Camarilla is concerned, while another would perhaps be almost like a member with them.



"Zakariya Bey" wrote:
Quite frankly, I would LIKE to see the Independent Clans and certain Bloodlines, but I'm not entirley certain we will. At least, not right away. Still, I'm going to hold out hope. Of course, like I said, some Clans might be up for the chop, and the Independents are far more likely. Perhaps this setting will expand on the Week of Nightmares and make the Ravnos extinct.




It may be that the Independents are either added to the Sabbat to "even up" the Clans between the Sects and make the Clans only exist in each Sect. Regarding metaplot I think they will pick and change after what they think will be best for the game.



"Zakariya Bey" wrote:
And, I'm holding out hope that perhaps down the road we will get more expansions. Perhaps we shall see a Werewolf: the Apocalypse expansion, a Mage: the Ascension expansion (hard to do, but possible), and so forth. I don't know if we will ever get as far as a Mummy expansion, though it would be cool, but perhaps we will at least get some of the other elements that never fully got explored in the old WoD thanks to the whole Gehenna thing.





While certainly possible I think its more likly that they will expand on the Kindred universe and perhaps add Laibon or Kuei-Jin, or new territory.
the_eye
Saturday, September 25, 2010 5:58:09 PM(UTC)
To be honest, I am dubious that a MMO based on the WoD (Old or New) would be profitable. Successful MMO's need a repetitive grinding element, and Games that don't provide that or do it badly tend to fail.



I just don't see it doing well, at least not like EVE, but we'll see.



edit: I'm confident that's going to be a good game, but that sadly doesn't correlate with success.















 

NeuroToxin
Saturday, September 25, 2010 6:24:24 PM(UTC)

"the_eye" wrote:
To be honest, I am dubious that a MMO based on the WoD (Old or New) would be profitable. Successful MMO's need a repetitive grinding element, and Games that don't provide that or do it badly tend to fail.

I just don't see it doing well, at least not like EVE, but we'll see.

edit: I'm confident that's going to be a good game, but that sadly doesn't correlate with success.



Out of curiousity, do you happen to have an Example of any such MMOs that failed like that or is it merely speculation?
RussellBailey
Saturday, September 25, 2010 6:35:53 PM(UTC)
"lawine" wrote:
I'd like an insight into the decision making process; why masquerade over requiem?

I can't answer now, but I wanted to acknowledge the question. Once we've released more information on World of Darkness, it's something I'll be happy to talk about. If you like what we're doing right now, you'll like where we're going with this.
Russell Bailey
Vampire: The Requiem Developer
Sgt Jacobs
Saturday, September 25, 2010 6:50:42 PM(UTC)
"NeuroToxin" wrote:
Out of curiousity, do you happen to have an Example of any such MMOs that failed like that or is it merely speculation?




Wolfenburg was pretty grind free but I don't think it failed because of that.
NeuroToxin
Saturday, September 25, 2010 6:54:14 PM(UTC)

"sikker" wrote:
Pretend I'm CCP. I will look at the hordes of fans at the gates yelling and screaming for an updated Masquerade book without the errors and mistakes of the decades old version. You think I say no?

I think the errors and mistakes are not that much of a big deal. Scanning it , fixing the errors and putting it all in a PDF is probably not that much of a big deal either and you probably do not need to pay more than one person to do..The Problem comes when you find out that there are more OWoD books than you can stack on a bookshelf and you need to repeat the process for each and every one , that can be an absolute nightmare and a very boring nightmare at that.

And I bet many people would want these releases for free or trade-in deal because they already bought them once. 

With that said if they already decide to update Masquerade I would prefer they release an official adaptation of the VTM settings(Sects, Clans, Bloodlines, Disciplines etc) for the NWoD mechanics .  There is no point in going back to the unbalanced OWoD mechanics when you have the more balanced NWoD ruleset that works for cross-venue. you can then call it VTM 4th edition or something like that.

"Sgt Jacobs" wrote:
"NeuroToxin" wrote:
Out of curiousity, do you happen to have an Example of any such MMOs that failed like that or is it merely speculation?


Wolfenburg was pretty grind free but I don't think it failed because of that.

Never even heard of it... IMO the fact that I never heard of it alone could make it a fail.  Let me guess its an indie F2P?


Sgt Jacobs
Saturday, September 25, 2010 7:02:10 PM(UTC)
"NeuroToxin" wrote:

Never even heard of it... IMO the fact that I never heard of it alone could make it a fail.  Let me guess its an indie F2P?





No it was Games Workshop's first attempt at a Warhammer MMO.



It was pretty cool. A whole Empire town to explore, the choice of Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling or Ogre. It was covered in White Dwarf but the staff seemed to lose intrest in it and it died.
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