How would a Mage, Garou, Kindred or otherwise..

Vittek:

I don't really consider wraiths to be spirits. All Gifts that work only on spirits, like Spirit Speech, Call to Duty, Name the Spirit, and so on, DON'T work on Wraiths. All Gifts that would work on humans, spirits, fomori and so on (most attack Gifts and much more), plus fangs and claws, work just quite well.
Oh, and all Rites that work only on spirits, like Summoning, Binding, Fetish, would not work on a Wraith.

But, Spirit Ward and Exorcism are noted to work on Wraiths.

Where, exactly? It's not in Gift description, nor on the Revised ST handbook.

ST Handbook revised edition. page 200 Wraith 3rd paragraph.

Oh, sorry, I completely overlooked those pages, don't know why.
It says, as an example, that letting those gifts affect Wraiths might be 'thematically appropriate.' So it is more a rule of thumb than an equation.
What's more, ti says that wraiths do not count as spirits for the same rites I named, but nowhere it says that ALL Gifts have no effect on them. It simply says that gifts specifically targeting spirits do not work, except where tematically appropriate.

Yes, I agree with you on that matter

I'm not sure why I never added this to my first post but Demons have Lore of Spirit which is all about controlling wraiths and if you read the backstory for Slayers in Houses of the Fallen they actually created the Dark Umbra and allowed for Relics to exist.  Also Charon is a Fallen in DtF but they mention that the Charon that saved Stygia in End of Empire(I think thats the name) was a Wraith and not a Fallen.  Of course I remember reading somewhere that there might have been multiple Charons since the begining.

EndersReturn:

Slayers in Houses of the Fallen they actually created the Dark Umbra and allowed for Relics to exist.  Also Charon is a Fallen in DtF but they mention that the Charon that saved Stygia in End of Empire(I think thats the name) was a Wraith and not a Fallen.

WTF?! 

Things like this are what made me hate the end of the OWoD, and the WW writing team.

Personally I liked it.  But of course I'm a DtF fan all the way.  Favorite game, hands down, whether it be for the Old or New WoD or any other system for that matter.  So yeah, throwing the Demons into the thick of it made me happy.  Only thing was the Slayer section of Houses of the Fallen was shorter than the rest and Slayers are my second favorite. 

While I can't see the link anymore, traditionally - wraiths have always had a leg up against all the other super-naturals (contrary to what a previous poster said about being "punked").

Nothing works across the shroud unless specifically stated otherwise.  Most supers do NOT resist each others' powers... which gives mages a massive boost vs others when they have a plan.

That advantage is negated considering Forces, Time, Correspondence & Matter do not function at all in the low umbra (which logically means, you can't use that affect regardless of which side you are on).  So now looking or divining for wraiths. You basically have to be carrying your arsenal on you.

Which is limited to Spirit/Entropy/Prime - most of which are direct or indirect attacks. Binding/Commanding or sometype is resistable via Willpower (this is listed under every single mage power I've seen) and also in the back of WtO 2nd edition.

Surprisingly, the best advantage comes in the form of some Hedge-magic powers and Vampiric Necromancy, which are downright brutal in their resistance-method (varies from power to power).

However, the greatest strength that wraiths have is in their escape mechanisms (foreshadowing, argos 1, etc...) and offensive powers (Obliviate).

Obliviate which continues to be aggravated and unsoakable (if you go cross all sources, vtem said it was soakable then mta changed it back to unsoakable), Marionette (control another super and use their powers..) etc...

Usually, a wraith's worst enemies are spectres and their shadows. Throw in a pinch of specialied motral anti-ghost sorcerors and it is a nightmare.

The Giovanni, the Euthanatos, etc etc.. all pose threats to wraiths. But there are at least 2 groups of guild wraiths that have dealt and are familiar with hunters of all kinds..

Sam W.

Nerhesi:

That advantage is negated considering Forces, Time, Correspondence & Matter do not function at all in the low umbra (which logically means, you can't use that affect regardless of which side you are on).  So now looking or divining for wraiths. You basically have to be carrying your arsenal on you.

That's not entirely accurate -- Forces can still work in the Low Umbra (particularly the Shadowlands), as can Corrospondence and Time (though they usually have a +1 difficulty, per the Mage books, with worse modifiers given any flares in the Maelstrom, and Corrospondence can only be used to traverse areas in the same layer of the Low Umbra -- I recall a couple rotes where a mage specifically needed Corrospondence to get to/from a Shadowland location if it didn't sync up with the physical world locale where the character was, as Spirit 3/Life2 only allowed the mage to cross the Shroud, but not reach other locations without walking, et al; and warp effects can screw things even further, of course).  Matter, however, is generally not useful, though it can still be applied to any materials directly transferred through the Shroud, or existing in the Shadowlands in a co-umbral state (which, while rare, is less rare in haunts and with many materials affected via Ushabti/Effigy, and similar powers).

Boy... this topic had been gone for a while...  were you just digging around?  I do that sometimes, myself...

EDIT: Oh, but you are on point about Prime/Spirit/Entropy; that triumverate is the best spheres to use against Wraiths (which makes sense, as they also represent Primordialism in the Mage/Garou trifecta... but anywho...)

JustJohn...again:

That's not entirely accurate -- Forces can still work in the Low Umbra (particularly the Shadowlands), as can Corrospondence and Time (though they usually have a +1 difficulty, per the Mage books, with worse modifiers given any flares in the Maelstrom, and Corrospondence can only be used to traverse areas in the same layer of the Low Umbra -- I recall a couple rotes where a mage specifically needed Corrospondence to get to/from a Shadowland location if it didn't sync up with the physical world locale where the character was,

Unfortunately, there are more than a few rotes in mages books that simply do not/cannot function.  This most flagrant examples are the ones dealing with the lower umbra, where hopeful but incorrect rotes are using correspondence and/or forces for example.

The rules for sphere not working in the lower umbra are found in the Book of Mirrors.

Sphere that do not function at all:

Matter
Forces
Correspondence
Time

Spheres that are always vulgar
Life
Prime

Entropy is a -minus something difficulty.

I do not know the page number in the book of mirrors off the top of my head :(

Sam W.

Nerhesi:

JustJohn...again:

That's not entirely accurate -- Forces can still work in the Low Umbra (particularly the Shadowlands), as can Corrospondence and Time (though they usually have a +1 difficulty, per the Mage books, with worse modifiers given any flares in the Maelstrom, and Corrospondence can only be used to traverse areas in the same layer of the Low Umbra -- I recall a couple rotes where a mage specifically needed Corrospondence to get to/from a Shadowland location if it didn't sync up with the physical world locale where the character was,

Unfortunately, there are more than a few rotes in mages books that simply do not/cannot function.  This most flagrant examples are the ones dealing with the lower umbra, where hopeful but incorrect rotes are using correspondence and/or forces for example.

The rules for sphere not working in the lower umbra are found in the Book of Mirrors.

Sphere that do not function at all:

Matter
Forces
Correspondence
Time

Spheres that are always vulgar
Life
Prime

Entropy is a -minus something difficulty.

I do not know the page number in the book of mirrors off the top of my head :(

Sam W.

Re-read my post, and realized I should have clarified a couple of things (so mea culpa on my part, as that only spurs more misperceptions...)

First off: The Book of Mirrors is valid within its context; other books state alternate rules, and BoM was itself partially invalidated by Revised and other rules, though admittedly that is a matter of setting and circumstances.

Forces is applicable in/to the Shadowlands/Penumbral realms (my original statement wasn't concise enough on that point and I didn't edit my term usage - my bad); it doesn't readily apply in the deeper reaches as the actual manifestation of "forces" simply doesn't exist.  However, as with Corrospondence and Time, it cannot affect things "cross-gauntlet" without accompanying use of Spirit; that is, to clarify, Corrospondence cannot scry into the Low Umbra(e) without using Spirit 1/2, as appropriate, though if already in the Shadowlands, Corrospondence can be used to "get around" spatially, thought not by degrees of dimensional level -- you can use it to teleport from the "street" to the top of a "building" across the "city", but not to "descend" into deeper parts of the Low Umbra (deeper than the Shadowlands, for example, without conjuntionally using Spirit and/or Entropy as appropriate).  Time may affect a Penumbral target within the targeted spot, but not normally without at least a conjunctional Spirit 2 Effect, unless the caster is already in the Penumbra/Shadowlands, and then it has a +1 difficulty.  There are some exceptions to this general precept (such as being able to disperse a wraith in the Shadowlands/Penumbra with a simple Forces effect, the same way a random bullet or thrown baseball could, for example), but that's the general gist of things.  Matter is a no-go for general purposes, unless "matter" itself is transposed into the Umbra, which is uncommon, but not unheard of, especially in Mummy cross-overs, but that is an exception, certainly, and not the general rule.

Hopefully that cleared up my previous post, at least a little bit.  And, of course, I should have closed with the ever important reference to the Golden Rule, not simply that you can have the world be as you want it to be, but you can certainly use whatever rules from whatever editions that you may want to use, and cross-pollenate said rules, as well. 

EDIT: Dammit... I did it again!  Meant to post some examples/references, and now I am not near my livingroom books... but off the top of my head: The Infinite Tapestry (re)defines and clarifies the use of Corrospondence, Time, and Forces for all parts of the Umbra (in the first forum, the books reference to Matter was corrected via errata to be Forces); several books in Mage 2nd (both before and after Book of Worlds) have rotes that involve Correspondence in the Low Umbra; when the rules for warp effects were given in Revised books, and examples given, the specific example of Forces being used in the Low Umbra to protect the character from "X" was used.  While I generally loved Phil Brucato's take/guidance on Mage, this was a case where he had definitely dropped the ball from a metaphysical POV -- I had commented back in the day to my friends that both Book of Worlds and Book of Mirrors (which just restated BoW in this case) were off track in this regard, and that they would probably course correct this in later books/editions... which they did, after Phil left.  But again, Golden Rule trumps all... though it is good to understand the underlying reasoning behind why "xyz" does (or does not) make sense in general...

blah...

Well...

The distinction between 'spirit' and 'ghost' is pretty hazy, both in the WoD and in the real life mythology. By the broadest possible definition, a 'spirit' could be anything... a ghost, a demon, a god, an animal totem, astral beings, some alien horror that human minds can't describe. Does an ancestor count as a 'ghost' or a 'spirit'? Certainly in WoD cosmology the Sphere of Spirit could cover anything from a nature spirit to a Wraith to a higher abstract entity.

For Vampires Necromancy is all about controlling/enslaving Wraiths (and ONLY Wraiths, NOT other spirits). However, outside of the Giovanni, a few rare bloodlines (Nagaraja, Harbingers of Skulls, Samedi, Mla Watu) and practitioners of Kindred Voudon (mostly some Setites, Serpents of Light and Samedi) most other Kindred have no way of interacting with, affecting or even perceiving Wraiths. Which means that 99% of the time Wraiths are never going to even interact with them in the first place. Unless you run your game different and make Necromancy more widespread.

The Tremere come close. IIRC they had some Rituals that could affect Wraiths and the Path of Spirit Control could affect Wraiths and Wyrm-tainted spirits. Then again that may have been second edition stuff too, and even then it was rare and tightly controlled by the hierarchy. The Tremere just couldn't compete with Giovanni Necromancy.

Werewolves also are pretty much screwed. Thematically certain Gifts should work well against Wraiths and I would certainly allow such in my games. But as a general rule Werewolves aren't going to have many ways of perceiving or interacting with Wraiths unless they are specifically looking for them. Only the Silent Striders as a whole have any large scale interactions with Wraiths and the underworld, thanks in part to their rite. The Ivory Priesthood amongst the Silver Fangs have access to a similar Rite and some interaction with the underworld too.

For Werewolf the Wild West there actually was a Wraith cross-over book called Ghost Towns. Amongst other things ALL of the Tribes had access to their own variation on that Rite but it was correspondingly rarer and more difficult for some Tribes than others. Some might even be lost by the modern era.

And Mages... A Mage who is built for interacting with Wraiths is going to be able to do pretty much whatever he wants. Spirit lets you affect Wraiths... the core book even mentions necromancy as one specialty for the Sphere! Mixing in Entropy lets you do some more creative stuff with the Underworld, though actually travelling there is dangerous (if not sucidal). The Euthanatos, Dreamspeakers, Wu Lung, Hollow Ones and Void Engineers have the most interaction with Wraiths though their views are going to be pretty different. Mages who don't specialize in ghost-calling are going to be kinda screwed.

Most of the necromancy stuff for Wraith was covered in the Euthanatos TB iirc.

Zakariya Bey:

most other Kindred have no way of interacting with, affecting or even perceiving Wraiths. Which means that 99% of the time Wraiths are never going to even interact with them in the first place.

This isnt quite true or I just misunderstand you. Puppeteers Guild for example has quite a bit of interaction with Kindred most of which is with the Kindred who know nothing of Necromancy and likely dont even believe in ghosts. They make a point of avoiding the Giovanni and the more corpse like Kindred and instruct the Risen that they train to pass themselves as vampires going as far as to suggest that they should go by calling themselves either Malkavians or Toreador. So one could actually argue that most of the interaction between Kindred and Wraiths happens with those who have no knowledge of Necromancy. Of course such interaction tends to be one sided and most of the time go totally unnoticed by the Kindred even the ones interacted with.

In general though conflict between a Wraith and any other being is likely going to be rather one sided towards one side. If the other being isnt specifically geared towards ghosts and spirits he is gonna be in a lot of trouble against a Wraith who has capabilities that reach across the Shroud, and likewise for the Wraith if the being is specifically geared to handle spirits wheter by the Spirit Sphere, Necromancy Discipline or specific Rites/Gifts that are designed to work against ghost. The Garou can have it a tad easier if they happen upon a Wyld infested Wraith as per the merit (?) in the Haunter Guildbook but those are an exception not the rule. Kuei-Jin can have it a tad easier but even they need either specific Disciplines or Rites to handle a ghostly threat, but in general those things are more easily avaivable to them.

The Tremere have wards against wraiths but thats about it since I seem to remember that Spirit Control would work only on Wyrm-tainted spirits not wraiths meaning that it reaches to the Penumbra not the low.

Spirit Sphere indeed can affect Wraiths, going purely by memory here though not near my books at teh moment, but it depends upon the Paradigm of the Mage in question wheter it can help or not. If the Paradigm doesn't include controlling the Dead or reaching into the low-Umbra even a mage with the Spirit Sphere is in trouble.

Wraiths are likely among the most terrifying antagonists to most of the inhabitants of the World of Darkness since there is nearly nothing you can do against them without a few very specific powers that are mostly in the hands of a few individual groups who dislike sharing.

So this modified quote kinda summs it all up.

Zakariya Bey:

 Anyone who doesn't specialize in ghost-calling are going to be kinda screwed.

Possessed:

The Tremere have wards against wraiths but thats about it since I seem to remember that Spirit Control would work only on Wyrm-tainted spirits not wraiths meaning that it reaches to the Penumbra not the low.

That is correct.  Spirit Thaumaturgy affects/interacts the Penumbra/Middle Umbra, not the Shadowlands/Low Umbra.

Reminds me of an ST who was running in a setting where he made no "dimensional" distinctions in terms of Cosmology (i.e. "the Spirit Realm" was just one unified reality).  This would have been fine, except that he really didn't grasp the ramifications of that in terms of running WoD/ the shift in metaphysical thought necessary to do that, so one of my fellow players and I just kind of periodically side-glanced each other when the ST would have to question why "xyz" was stated the way it was in book "X".  He just didn't get it, even when we tried to gently explain to him that his idea was fine, as such, but if he was going to run things that way, he would have to really wing alot of things, as the books operate on a completely different level, and he wouldn't be able to use many of the rules presented without creating certain meta-problems.  He didn't understand that.

There was a whole lot of covert side-glancing after that...

EDIT: Should clarify further -- Spirit Thaumaturgy wasn't *expressly* limited to Wyrm-tainted Mid-Umbral spirits, but those types of spirits were often drawn to the vampire, naturally, due to the vampire's intrinsic nature.  (As a metaphysical sidenote, it is still interesting to note how, if "arbitrarily tossed" into the Umbra (without direct intent or mystical "stability"), vampires naturally gravitate "down" into the Shadowlands, much as how Garou gravitate to the Middle Umbra, and Mages to the High Umbra... not directly relevant, but very telling in its own way, as it carries certain subtle metaphysical ramifications...)