Ideas for new non Atlantean Orders ?

          First, i am already reading some orders books. But i think the orders are hollow in philosophy/concept. C'mon, why an order like adamantine arrow will obey silver ladder laws or why adamantine arrow will acept the judgment of silver ladder? Its more logical that a order reunite menbers because a conection of ideology/religious, not because a professional link like the orders system of awakening (adamantine = soldier, ladder = judge/lawmaker ...). When i see the book of the order of hermes from ascension, i can see all awakening factions in they factions, like the quaesitor = silver ladder or the Bonisagus = Mysterium.  Why i think that the orders of awakening arent that good like the orders of ascension is because i cant see diferents goals and the lack of culture background and philosophy.

        Yes, the magical traditions is really a good book, but they dont substitute the orders for the tradtions. And making a pc without order isnt already easy in roleplay and mecanic (dont forget the dice +1 bonus for rotes of the order).

        Thats why i am making this topic, because if you think i am wrong please explain the good points of the orders or if you think that i am right, lets try to change some ideas to making some new non atlatean orders.

        The reality is that i really need to finish the books of adamantine and silver ladder, but i think that the two orders and his factions arent that great... C'mon, Powerbreakes sound ok for me, but the concept of Theurges is already inside in the idea of powerbreakers, it is really the old question of genere and species. The ascended is really a faction ? Well whats the diference of ascended from a mysterium mage seeking archmage steps (for me the ascended is really from mysterium concept, not Silver Ladder...) ? The factions of adamantine arrow  arent better in the idea i think, whats the goal of  black tower and council of dragons ? Looks that the only diference of these factions is "means and ends".

         Really the concept of the orders without philosophy background dont looks good, but i want to read some diferent view of the concpt of the orders.


Obs.: sorry for the bad english.
         

        

I don't replace the Orders, I just make them subordinate to Tradition.  They end up being castes within one's Tradition, which is the primary social organization.

Ophidimancer, great idea !  I realy can see a similar japanese "bushido" style in adamantine arrow, but the other orders dont have any reference. Well, we need a Book of Traditions  2 or a Book of Crafts with  new orders.

I think that we really need awakening 2.0 with erratas and some changes into the orders concepts giving to they more philosophy and goals. Its a matter of time for this i think.

Anyway, why we dont have some crossover orders like mage + werewolfs or changelings/prometheans.  I think if the new wod is made wioth focus in crossover, why make some background for it.  It's a idea for one or two non Atlantean orders with new philosophy and goals.

 

I like the caste idea. The orders should be shorthand for Mages who have chosen to focus on one aspect of Awakened life over the others. You really can't get rid of them, as they're useful in defining characters and they're necessary to make sense of the Rote system. This doesn't mean that an Adamantine Arrow Mages can't value knowledge, or wouldn't like to awaken the masses; they're just better at combat than most people, and spend most of their free time training and studying combat centric "Adamantine Arrow" rotes.

Detson, the problem isnt the order itself, but the lack of philosophy and goal. The idea of pentacle or nothing itself isnt good. The way that orders works arent good too, like i said why adamantine arrow will obey silver ladder or accept  the silver ladder judgment ? Adamantine arrow arent inferior to silver ladder to work for him, admantine arrow can make its own laws and judge his criminals without the manipulation of another order, its a question of soberany of order itself.  Like i read in a discussion in a forum of mage ascension apocalypse, with the end of technocracy, the nine traditions will end his contract/end the consilium and anyone will think of his own bussiness or fight another tradition for power or ideology.

In ascension all traditions have his own logic and goal without the consilium of 9 traditions, its a convenience all nine be together to resist technocracy terrorist atacks.One trtadition can exist without the other 8, but in awakening every order need another, adamantine wihtout silver cannot exist, because admantine is only a army. In the end, is pentacle or nothing.

And c'mon, why I a mage will enter um a army order to be killed when silver ladder is safe ? You cant forget that real sleeper soldiers arent soldiers because they want, but because they need the money of the army. A mage isnt the same think as a sleeper soldier, its another level. A mage will fight a spirit because of some belief, like i will fight a vampire because i want to protect my religion ideals or want to protect the children or i want to protect the stray dogs that the vampires suck the blood... if i can negociat with him for stopping vandalism, paying some stollen blood of hospital i can run of the fight and complete my objective. I can decide with my philosophy. But if i am an admantine arrow, a superior give me a order and throw away my life fighting for what ? Atlanthis ? For dont receive condenation of silver ladder ? I think that orders lacks ideology/philosophy/goals, one order cannot be submit of other order requests.

Well thats is what i think. Adamantine really have one or other precepts, but its really vague and i cant see the arrow as a independent order... the same goes to silver ladder and the others.

The real question a mage need to make is: why i want to be a menber of this order ? And i think the asnwer is similar to the what we can have of the people who goes to the church every week, in other words because "believe in its precepts/ideals".

Preaching to the choir, my friend.  The authors confused "philosophical order" with "job in a player group." The Mysterium takes Occult, the Arrow takes Firearms, the Ladder takes social skills...lazy.

supreme_bangiras:

The real question a mage need to make is: why i want to be a menber of this order ? And i think the asnwer is similar to the what we can have of the people who goes to the church every week, in other words because "believe in its precepts/ideals".

And there is enough in the Orders for people to believe in.  The Arrows, specifically, hold honor as an overriding factor.  They don't necessarily blindly obey a Silver Ladder just because they are Silver Ladder, they most likely obey because they have sworn an oath and the keeping of oaths is of utmost importance to many Arrows.  Silver Ladder aren't always superiors either, they just tend to be because it is one of their philosophical points that mages are a community.  No other Order makes it as much of a priority to build the Awakened into a unified Nation.

Just look at the Order philosophies:

Adamantine Arrows:  Existence Is War, Enlightenment Is Honor, The Supernal Is The Self, Service Is Mastery
Free Council:  Democracy Seeks The Truth; Hierarchy Fosters The Lie, Humanity Is Magical; Human Works Have Arcane  Secrets, Destroy The Followers Of The Lie
Guardians Of The Veil:  Paradoxes Strengthen The Abyss As Punishment Answers Pride, Sins For a Just End Grant Wisdom To The Awakened, Merit Must Guide The Fallen World
The Mysterium:  Knowledge Is Power, Knowledge Must Be Preserved, Knowledge Has a Price
The Silver Ladder:  The Awakened Are One Nation, Imperium Is The Right Of Humanity, The Silver Ladder Is The Path To Victory, The Sleepers Follow

There is a lot there to believe in, for various reasons.

Detson:

You really can't get rid of them, as they're useful in defining characters and they're necessary to make sense of the Rote system.

Want to bet on that one?  

Orders do have a lot to them, I'll admit.   I'm personally a fan of using cult, family, monastic order, guild, and library/school to represent the five orders, rather than party roles or social castes.  But I also prefer using Traditions and Legacies as the main source of rotes and a good majority of mystical secrets, rather than Orders.  Without the control of secrets, Orders suddenly become far less important.

The authors confused "philosophical order" with "job in a player group."

QFT

Detson:

The authors confused "philosophical order" with "job in a player group."

I don't think they were confused, I think they constructed the Orders very consciously in order to create the Gnostic, secret society feel they wanted or the game.  A big theme with Mage is the concept of occult societies hidden behind the organizations of the world with real arcane knowledge transcending everything Sleepers think they know about science and occultism.

Ophidimancer:

And there is enough in the Orders for people to believe in.  The Arrows, specifically, hold honor as an overriding factor.  They don't necessarily blindly obey a Silver Ladder just because they are Silver Ladder, they most likely obey because they have sworn an oath and the keeping of oaths is of utmost importance to many Arrows.  Silver Ladder aren't always superiors either, they just tend to be because it is one of their philosophical points that mages are a community.  No other Order makes it as much of a priority to build the Awakened into a unified Nation.

And this brings up the other element that's needed for an Order to stand on its own.  What's its goal?  Taking the Adamantine Arrow as an example: what is it that the Order, as a whole, is trying to accomplish? 

Dataweaver:

And this brings up the other element that's needed for an Order to stand on its own.  What's its goal?  Taking the Adamantine Arrow as an example: what is it that the Order, as a whole, is trying to accomplish?

Like the Covenants, the goals of any particular manifestation of an Order vary depending on setting and specific characters.  In general it's probably something like Act With Honor, Protect And Serve, etc.  Orders are not monolithic and the same the world over, despite how unified the Silver Ladder wants them to be.

I don't replace the Orders, I just make them subordinate to Tradition.  They end up being castes within one's Tradition, which is the primary social organization.  -  Ophidimancer

That's close to what I do.  Magic users in my setting have tiers like in Hunter, and the four Diamond Orders make up one conspiracy-analogue; similar caste/profession breakdowns also show up in other groups, based on tradition or culture.

Ophidimancer:

Dataweaver:

And this brings up the other element that's needed for an Order to stand on its own.  What's its goal?  Taking the Adamantine Arrow as an example: what is it that the Order, as a whole, is trying to accomplish?

Like the Covenants, the goals of any particular manifestation of an Order vary depending on setting and specific characters.  In general it's probably something like Act With Honor, Protect And Serve, etc.  Orders are not monolithic and the same the world over, despite how unified the Silver Ladder wants them to be.

Sorry, but i think that you are wrong Ophidimancer. What you are telling is the same, tom me of course, to go to the church without believe in god or in some principles. I dont need to be a menber of adamantine arrow to act with honor and protect the weaks. Thats the point, why we have orders if they dont have unique philosophy ? All religions can teach us to act with honor, but the diference in catalocism and budism are philosophy in believe or not in a god (or anithing similar to it, i'm not good in religion after all).

Montesquieu created the model of trias politica/separation of powers, with 3 equal powers where one power restrains other. But the question is, Silver Ladder is a Legislative and Executive, this makes all other orders  down in politic, it is the same to say that silver ladder give orders (law) and punishes (judiciary) any menber of other order who dont like it. Its ultra broken.

Anyway, the mages dont organize in orders to get a job like all humans that work in executive, judiciary and legislative. The concept of an order is the same of a religion, not of the works of a society. Look to order of hermes, all mages get into the faction becauase the way of making magic, history, precepts, philosophy, origin and goals. Inside the order we can se that we have sub faction like quaesitor that rules like a judiciary/silver ladder, another sub faction House Bonisagus/Shaea make the role of mysterium, house ex miscelenia is free council equivalent,  and house Tytalus is the same as adamantine arrow. All of the houses are hermetic mages, with similar goals as a order and especific goal inside the order. And dont forget all the philosophy/background of the order of hermes. Ah, and in ascension we have already another 8 orders with similar sub factions. Lets look to the pentacle now, what will happen if pentacle ends ? Arrow is only a army and without a legislative and judiciary they cannot exist, the same goes to the other orders like silver ladder. In the end is pentacle atlantis philosophy or nothing, it really a fight againt bad guys (seers) and good guys (pentacle). In ascension, with the deafeat of technocracy the council will have a end to and the orders will fight one - another because thwey conflict in ideology/philosophy means and matters. Well order of hermes can survive alone without the other 9 factions and admantine arrow cant survive without the other 4 factions...

Well, like Destson said, "The authors confused "philosophical order" with "job in a player group." and i think that him is right.

Thats why that i think that we need new orders, because  pentacle is only 1 big order not 5. I really expect some new orders in the future like a book of crafts from ascension. Ah, and the question of the paradigm isnt dead in awakening, because we have path systens with diferent magical effects (dont need mana to improvise a spell of the path, arcana 5 etc.). I can really say that hermetic/ celestial chorus style mages are similar to obrimos, verbena/dreamspeakers magic style = thyrsus, moros style = euthanatos/sons of ether , etc.

supreme_bangiras:

Sorry, but i think that you are wrong Ophidimancer.

Maybe I am, or maybe I'm just not explaining things well enough, or maybe you're not getting the point of Orders.  It's not the point of Orders to have specific beliefs.  It's the point of Orders to have ways of believing, so that they are general enough to fit any setting.  Their actual beliefs will vary, but the way in which they achieve those things is what makes an Order member an Order member.

supreme_bangiras:

What you are telling is the same, tom me of course, to go to the church without believe in god or in some principles.

But it's not the same thing, because the specific Order representatives in your area will have particular goals that they want to achieve and believe in.  It's just that the Order provides a code of meta-ethics, in which mages go about achieving their goals.

supreme_bangiras:

I dont need to be a menber of adamantine arrow to act with honor and protect the weaks.

You're right, of course, but that's not actually one of the defining philosophical statements that makes the Adamantine Arrow what they are.  Those are 1) Existence is War, 2) Enlightenment is Honor, and 3) Service is Mastery.  The first one is a statement about reality, the second is a statement about magic and mages, the third is a a statement about how to approach responsibility.  If your character agrees with those statements, they are a good fit for the Arrows.

supreme_bangiras:

Thats the point, why we have orders if they dont have unique philosophy ?

The social splats in the NWOD don't generally tend to be as specific as all that.  They give a larger framework in which to work for their own particular goals.  The Invictus, for example, doesn't particularly have an overall agenda, it just tends to go about it's business with hierarchical power plays and social maneuvering.  I think the Order philosophies are plenty unique enough.

supreme_bangiras:

Silver Ladder is a Legislative and Executive, this makes all other orders  down in politic, it is the same to say that silver ladder give orders (law) and punishes (judiciary) any menber of other order who dont like it. Its ultra broken.

That's not generally how it works.  All the orders can and do have their own forms of governance.  It's just that the Silver Ladder pushes an agenda that all mages belong in the same society, working together.

supreme_bangiras:

The concept of an order is the same of a religion, not of the works of a society.

I think you misunderstand what the developers were trying for.

supreme_bangiras:

Ah, and the question of the paradigm isnt dead in awakening, because we have path systens with diferent magical effects (dont need mana to improvise a spell of the path, arcana 5 etc.). I can really say that hermetic/ celestial chorus style mages are similar to obrimos, verbena/dreamspeakers magic style = thyrsus, moros style = euthanatos/sons of ether , etc.

Paths are not where you will find the discussion of paradigm in Awakening.  Look in the Mythos section of Tome of the Mysteries.  Paradigms have to explain Paths, not the other way around.  As an long time fan of Ascension, I welcome any discussion of paradigm, but you have to apply it in the right place in Awakening or you just get confused about how the game works.

Paths are objective realities of the setting, like the Arcana.  Each Path can mostly fit into any Tradition or paradigm because Path doesn't dictate magical style.  The Hermetic paradigm, for example, is a style of high ritual magic, which fits into the themes for all the Paths.

supreme_bangiras:

I dont need to be a menber of adamantine arrow to act with honor and protect the weak.

I think that's exactly his point (and by extension, the designers'). You also don't need to be Invictus to believe in meritocracy, or a Carthian to be able to accept change. It's just that you can take your beliefs there (to the Invictus, the Carthians or whatever) for mutual support.

I suspect that all this idea on the Orders needing to be monolithic and having clear, unified goals has deep roots on old character creation habits more than anything else. I, for one, was pleasantly surprised that (almost) none of the social splats in all nWoD games are as globally and irrevocably focused into certain things and goals as, say, the Sabbat was (the exception I can think of are the Conspiracies in Hunter, but that's one tier out of three, so I guess it's cool).

All in all, it makes the players I've known work a little harder to come to a less obvious concept for their characters, since they don't have a myriad of splat-based pre-generated stances for their characters to fall back on. No wonder you're stuck to the idea that "protect the weak" can't be an order philosophy because it would mean no other order members could uphold it; in real life, people and organizations aren't that binary and two-dimensional - fictional characters sometimes are.

But that's just an opinion. If you want to replace them, go ahead - I just think you're coming from what's essentially a non-issue, and it may lead to a less than ideal approach later. Me, I'd just write off the idea of organized bodies whatsoever - as opposed to making them more calcified with extra goals and hard-coded philosophical boundaries - and run the game with castes, clubs, expanded cabals or anything that's not too limiting.