Ideas for new non Atlantean Orders ?

supreme_bangiras:

I dont need to be a menber of adamantine arrow to act with honor and protect the weak.

I think that's exactly his point (and by extension, the designers'). You also don't need to be Invictus to believe in meritocracy, or a Carthian to be able to accept change. It's just that you can take your beliefs there (to the Invictus, the Carthians or whatever) for mutual support.

I suspect that all this idea on the Orders needing to be monolithic and having clear, unified goals has deep roots on old character creation habits more than anything else. I, for one, was pleasantly surprised that (almost) none of the social splats in all nWoD games are as globally and irrevocably focused into certain things and goals as, say, the Sabbat was (the exception I can think of are the Conspiracies in Hunter, but that's one tier out of three, so I guess it's cool).

All in all, it makes the players I've known work a little harder to come to a less obvious concept for their characters, since they don't have a myriad of splat-based pre-generated stances for their characters to fall back on. No wonder you're stuck to the idea that "protect the weak" can't be an order philosophy because it would mean no other order members could uphold it; in real life, people and organizations aren't that binary and two-dimensional - fictional characters sometimes are.

But that's just an opinion. If you want to replace them, go ahead - I just think you're coming from what's essentially a non-issue, and it may lead to a less than ideal approach later. Me, I'd just write off the idea of organized bodies whatsoever - as opposed to making them more calcified with extra goals and hard-coded philosophical boundaries - and run the game with castes, clubs, expanded cabals or anything that's not too limiting.

PS.: You are Brazilian, aren't you?

Detson:

Preaching to the choir, my friend.  The authors confused "philosophical order" with "job in a player group." The Mysterium takes Occult, the Arrow takes Firearms, the Ladder takes social skills...lazy.

No, we gave the two areas a complex, ambiguous relationship because real subcultures aren't conceptual Lego.

I forgot that WW employees read these posts; no offense was meant. M:tA is a great game which my players and I enjoy very much.

Fabio Sooner:

supreme_bangiras:

I dont need to be a menber of adamantine arrow to act with honor and protect the weak.

I think that's exactly his point (and by extension, the designers'). You also don't need to be Invictus to believe in meritocracy, or a Carthian to be able to accept change. It's just that you can take your beliefs there (to the Invictus, the Carthians or whatever) for mutual support.

I suspect that all this idea on the Orders needing to be monolithic and having clear, unified goals has deep roots on old character creation habits more than anything else. I, for one, was pleasantly surprised that (almost) none of the social splats in all nWoD games are as globally and irrevocably focused into certain things and goals as, say, the Sabbat was (the exception I can think of are the Conspiracies in Hunter, but that's one tier out of three, so I guess it's cool).

All in all, it makes the players I've known work a little harder to come to a less obvious concept for their characters, since they don't have a myriad of splat-based pre-generated stances for their characters to fall back on. No wonder you're stuck to the idea that "protect the weak" can't be an order philosophy because it would mean no other order members could uphold it; in real life, people and organizations aren't that binary and two-dimensional - fictional characters sometimes are.

But that's just an opinion. If you want to replace them, go ahead - I just think you're coming from what's essentially a non-issue, and it may lead to a less than ideal approach later. Me, I'd just write off the idea of organized bodies whatsoever - as opposed to making them more calcified with extra goals and hard-coded philosophical boundaries - and run the game with castes, clubs, expanded cabals or anything that's not too limiting.

PS.: You are Brazilian, aren't you?

You are right ! How do you know ? Because this post http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/t/3813.aspx?PageIndex=2 ?

Anyway, back to the orders, i dont like the argument of simple concept give me more freedon as a ST, because if thats true i only need the mecanics and ignore the background to play the game. The question is, i play mage because de mecanics or i read the great number of books because i like de evolution of the background ? Background is the essence of the rpg, without it we can play cop and thief like in our childhood...

Thats my answer, but i dont want be rude ok.

The question is that the descrition of Order of Hemes is very more complete than any or all of the orders. Its 1 book against five...

The reality is that withe wolf made a great job in mecanics but the worst in background...

Thats the way that i feel, but i am open to arguments, in special if we can see some comparison againt factions from ascension (looks more understanding for me...).

Again, sorry for the bad english.



 

Ophidimancer:

But it's not the same thing, because the specific Order representatives in your area will have particular goals that they want to achieve and believe in.  It's just that the Order provides a code of meta-ethics, in which mages go about achieving their goals.

And different Cabals of the same Order do not have to have the same goal. They may even end up having  opposing agendas. If two Adamantine Arrow come into conflict they will still have the same tenents despite their goals being in conflict

Ophidimancer:

Paths are not where you will find the discussion of paradigm in Awakening. 

Any discussion of paradigm as Ascension defined it is a moot point. Paradigm in awakening is pretty much set. But individual Mages may have a "personal"   paradigm. Meaning that a Mage may be a Silver Ladder and practice the Art through hermetic trappings. Does that make sense?

MrSandman:

And different Cabals of the same Order do not have to have the same goal. They may even end up having  opposing agendas. If two Adamantine Arrow come into conflict they will still have the same tenents despite their goals being in conflict

Yes, and it's "tenets."

MrSandman:

Any discussion of paradigm as Ascension defined it is a moot point. Paradigm in awakening is pretty much set. But individual Mages may have a "personal"   paradigm. Meaning that a Mage may be a Silver Ladder and practice the Art through hermetic trappings. Does that make sense?

Yes I know.  They've replaced the word "paradigm" with the word "mythos" and then later with "Magical Tradition" which I think are more appropriate.  Mythos, especially, is a lot less deconstructive than paradigm.

I have a feeling the problems that people (including myself) have with the setting are probably intentional. Writing the Orders as monolithic organisations, but also massively dispersed at the same time, allows everyone alot of room to move.

Detson:

I forgot that WW employees read these posts; no offense was meant. M:tA is a great game which my players and I enjoy very much.

It's more that the ambiguities are intentional. Remember, we already went through a phase where Malkavians were the wacky guys and Akashics were the kung fu guys, and it evolved into a more flexible approach open to wide interpretation. This time we started with that - lessons learned. That's why even though the AA talks up and down about everybody being badases, not all AAs are badasses.

Ophidimancer:

Yes I know.  They've replaced the word "paradigm" with the word "mythos" and then later with "Magical Tradition" which I think are more appropriate.  Mythos, especially, is a lot less deconstructive than paradigm.

These are two slightly different things. A mythos is an interpretation what is believed to be true. A magical tradition is a specific set of practices designed to exploit the way magic manifests in the world. You believe in a mythos and practice a tradition.

Malcolm:

These are two slightly different things. A mythos is an interpretation what is believed to be true. A magical tradition is a specific set of practices designed to exploit the way magic manifests in the world. You believe in a mythos and practice a tradition.

Well yes, okay, but there can be overlap in that your Mythos and your Tradition may have the same basis.  You don't necessarily have to believe in your Tradition, but you can.

Long time ago, Daimon Masque made his article about Apostates and introduce there idea of Crafts - cross between full blown Orders and large Cabals - various groups of Mages going with one idea of using magic, based on particular style. It was before Magical Traditions book, what made a material a bit redundant.

Now, after the Hunter coming out, I think that Mage is best based on Tiers - First is Cabal, Second would be Craft, Third Orders and Ministries. On this scale the Cultural variants of Orders ( like Indian Pentacle ) would also be Second Tier. Crafts can be used once more, as groups going with only Traditions, making game more diverse. I think this idea is good, adding to game even more variety to ideas of using magic in modern times.

Ophidimancer:

Yes, and it's "tenets."

proofread fail

re: WyrdHamster

I agree with your central idea of using the tier system, however, you might consider the factions of the Orders as the third tier. They tend to have alot more internal strength than the Orders as a whole.

WyrdHamster:

Long time ago, Daimon Masque made his article about Apostates and introduce there idea of Crafts - cross between full blown Orders and large Cabals - various groups of Mages going with one idea of using magic, based on particular style. It was before Magical Traditions book, what made a material a bit redundant.

Actually that was me, Deimos Masque (But I guess Daimon Masque is close enough for government work) but it's nice to know my "Going Alone" article is still remembered fondly.  Though I wouldn't say that the idea of Crafts is redundant now with Magical Traditions because I saw Crafts as something a little less than an actual Magical Tradition but more as a Mega-Cabal of Apostates.

I still have a copy of that article as well, it was very well written.