Portrayal of Christians in Witch Finders

Atholl:

Well, it was handled a lot more sympathetically than the issue of Irish stuff in Mage.

What are you referring to here, BTW?

http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/t/7460.aspx?PageIndex=1

I believe they mean this.

Zeev:

The book didn't say that the weekend Holy Spirit courses were about the Toronto Blessing, but that they were about experiencing the same core phenomenon.  There's a difference between going to experience the Toronto Blessing and going to experience the Holy Spirit with a group who's core leaders highly encourage Toronto Blessing like expressions of it.

Again, the book doesn't say that they go off for the TB, it says, "go away somewhere quiet to spend a couple of days experiencing the phenomena that characterized the Toronto Blessing."

That's not the same thing.

I agree with the difference you say exists, but the difference is moot.  Alpha encourages neither the Toronto Blessing explicitly nor the phenomena such as falling to the ground, speaking in babble, making animal sounds, etc. that characterize the Toronto Blessing.  The quote from Witch Finders reads "...That is, people who take one of these courses go away somewhere quiet to spend a couple of days experiencing the phenomena that characterized the Toronto Blessing."  I took one of these courses and I did not go anywhere to experience the phenomena that characterized the TB.  Neither did the people I know who took the course.  The course did not mention either the TB or the phenomena that characterized it.  As such, it would be hard to say that whatever TB influence had been present in the lives of the individuals who developed Alpha had come through into Alpha.  Going back to my previous point, the way the book is phrased it is taking "experience the Holy Spirit" to be the same as "experience the phenomena that characterized the Toronto Blessing," but the former does not mean the latter.  That Alpha therefore uses the former is thus not sufficient to justify claiming that Alpha participants experience the latter, and as an Alpha participant who knows other Alpha participants, I am explaining that they do not.

Zeev:

nor am I seeing how this is supposed to relate to some mistake about Christianity, Christian doctrine or etc. on the large scale.

The point of the passage you're talking about was not about an essay on Christian life in general.  It was a story hook about a specific incarnation of Christianity.

It was a story hook, and as nothing more I would have read past it and never commented on it.  It claimed real-life factual status, so its veracity became worthy of discussion.  You are correct that Alpha is not Christian doctrine.  However, its scale is fairly large.  It misrepresents those Christians who participate or have participated in it (myself included) and those who don't object to it.  The phenomena characterizing the TB are obviously spiritually and psychologically unhealthy to more than just Christians, and an untrue statement about the association of these phenomena and a widespread teaching course in Christian basics used by many paints a picture that more Christians accept these TB phenomena than actually do.  This lends false credence to some of the negative stereotypes about Christians (for example, that we are without reason or that our worship services are intended as social control by manipulative leaders).  The reinforcement of these stereotypes based on false criteria bothers me.

On a side note, I am aware that inflection does not come through in writing and that tone can therefore easily be taken as more aggressive than intended.  I'll therefore declare explicitly that while I am adamant about the point that I've raised, I do not intend my words to sound harsh and I am not angry even with the author, let alone with anyone who disagrees with me.  I started the thread to correct what I perceived (and still perceive) as a factual error with meaningful significance, but not to rant or make anyone feel bad.  I enjoy these forums and the sometimes crazy things hereon, all of which leads to the people hereon.

Michael:

http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/t/7460.aspx?PageIndex=1

I believe they mean this.

Wow.

Christiangoth:

Alpha encourages neither the Toronto Blessing explicitly nor the phenomena such as falling to the ground, speaking in babble, making animal sounds, etc. that characterize the Toronto Blessing.

Under who's definition?  Alpha, since it isn't a hierarchical system, is prone to individual groups doing things differently than intended.  It seems, to me, that if you're going to generalize about it, you're going to base off of the core Alpha people, not try to research all of the individual instances of Alpha out there in the world that may, or may not, be in line with Alpha's main thinker's opinions.

I search the Internet, and I find a ton of stuff that associates Alpha and Toronto.  And all you're saying is that because you're experiences are different, all those other people clearly are wrong.  But what makes you more authoritative here?  The author clearly expressed that they experienced this first hand, and had a different experience than you did.

It seems to me that the only case you can make is that the book is an over generalization.  But your insistence that the two are unlinked in reality simply seem to be you ignoring people that report different experiences than your own.

This is not a binary situation. Some Alpha can embrace Toronto and some might not.  Both are clearly true.  So, the question is not are Alpha and Toronto linked, because they are.  This is an established fact.  The problem then is determining which group you consider the dominant one.  I can't find anything solid either way, but I'd lean towards saying Toronto-embracing being more prominent simply because of the number of figures in Alpha that go that way.  Charisma goes a long way in deciding these things.

Christiangoth:

However, its scale is fairly large.  It misrepresents those Christians who participate or have participated in it (myself included) and those who don't object to it

I don't see the logical extension to this point.

Christiangoth:

The phenomena characterizing the TB are obviously spiritually and psychologically unhealthy to more than just Christians, and an untrue statement about the association of these phenomena and a widespread teaching course in Christian basics used by many paints a picture that more Christians accept these TB phenomena than actually do.

And this is bias, not fact.

There is no solid evidence of TB being psychologically unhealthy.  Nor is there any way to come close to proving its value spiritually.

The real underlying problem is that you don't seem to be acknowledging your own subtext:  You don't agree with TB style experiences and seem to even consider them negative.  Thus you see association with them as being bad, and don't want to be associated with it through something you, people you know, and other people more into the TB all participate in.

It doesn't come off as angry, it comes off as reactionary.  It feels like, instead of making a valid point that the book was, too general in its statement and didn't use the space it had to give it enough context to make it clear it wasn't an absolute, you're simply deciding that 'fact' is generalizing even more in the opposite direction to counter it.  It's a fact that not all Alpha Courses involved TB-like phenomenon.  But it is also a fact that many do.  Therefore you can't simply lay down one side as being factually right.

Atholl:

Well, it was handled a lot more sympathetically than the issue of Irish stuff in Mage.

Your position would be as if ChristianGoth claimed that something was factually wrong because the King James Bible is the inspired word of God. You make assertions which similarly lack merit in the other thread, and it's quick sneaky of you to try and hijack complaints that aren't contrived to push your own, which are.

Malcolm:

Atholl:

Well, it was handled a lot more sympathetically than the issue of Irish stuff in Mage.

Your position would be as if ChristianGoth claimed that something was factually wrong because the King James Bible is the inspired word of God. You make assertions which similarly lack merit in the other thread, and it's quick sneaky of you to try and hijack complained that aren't contrived to push your own, which are.

a) That's a shit analogy
b) I wasn't even remotely trying to hijack this thread, but your comment seems aimed at making such a thing happen

But Matt, there's so little that could make you think less of the Christian religion! ;)

(a) Analogy is suspect, but since you're the one claiming to have the "truth" of the matter of Irish history, you are essentially making a claim that is not backed up by evidence (and, indeed, is difficult to back up by evidence, simply because hard evidence is not nearly as common as we would like in historical research).
(b) You were the one who first waded in here to comment snarkily about how your agenda was being stepped on in another thread, so don't blame this on Malcolm for responding.

Now to get to the original thing, it so happens that I do have applicable experience here, because I was involved with youth ministry for the Anglican Communion in Toronto for a number of years. (To blow your minds a bit I was also a member of the Buddhist Society for Compassionate Wisdom with the full knowledge of many other participants. I should also mention the seminar from druidic reconstructionists I encountered via the Church, and say that Christianity is not an exclusively closed community. In case you're keeping track I'm now a full time lay Buddhist.)

For Alpha you must understand that Anglican tradition (where it comes from) has some particular teachings regarding faith and scholarship. Alpha is one in a succession of programs developed in this tradition. There was a program called Logos that made the rounds in the late 80s. Plus, Anglicanism has a tradition of lay retreats and ecumenicism. The Alpha Course, like typical Anglican-designed programs, is ecumenical in nature and shared. It also exists in the context of a theological concept called the "three legged stool" of reason, tradition and scripture. Originally this means that Christianity was to be founded in scripture and interpreted rationally, with reference to tradition, but the tendency while I was active was for all three to have equal weight. There's been an attempt to revive Hooker's hierarchy and the original definition, but I can't tell you how that's going because I don't go to church any more. Suffice to say that Alpha's genesis takes place in the context of a vision of Christianity where in general, nothing is absolute, everyone has something valid to say and the prime goal is to understand the Christian tradition in the hope of quashing a sense of separation from God.

Now from what I understand Alpha has a buffed-up section devoted to Charismatic teachings. The Anglican Communion has varied opinions about this, but in Toronto is is definitely non-mainstream, and the Toronto Blessing isn't even an Anglican church. It is however popular - and more popular in the US then many other places. As Alpha is non-denominational that means that material can be used by members of other traditions to emphasize this, and also to present a viewpoint that is far less discursive, argumentative and unsure than its source tradition. Alpha could be wrestled into a hard-evangelical mode, but I doubt that this is its original purpose or even its real genesis. The Toronto Blessing may have been latched onto by way of example, but if it was the main thing it would be so divorced from the mainstream of Anglican thought that it wouldn't really have taken root within the Communion in the first place.

Jesse Heinig:

But Matt, there's so little that could make you think less of the Christian religion! ;)

In fairness, it's hardly exclusive to one religion. :)

Holy shit is this a joke thread or what?  I just laughed so hard I soiled my pants OP.  Thanks for a good laugh.

Two pages of this? Really?

You're not really defending your cause, reading your post almost makes it sound like you're making animal noises, and speaking in tongue. Witch Finders over exaggerates many different religions, if you take it seriously, then you might as well damn every Catholic for having a pocket "Malleus Maleficarum" on hand at all times.

There's a difference between fact, and fluff. Although, I'd like to thank you Christiangoth (*facepalm* at having to write that name) for opening my eyes to Christian sleep away camp.

No offense, really. It's just rare to see a topic like this.

I am offended with the portrayal of "TB" in this thread. You see, TB is the shorthand my group has been using for my new Mage game set in Boston (since we're local to it and otherwise ignorant of US geography, or world geography for that matter. Canada's connected to Russia, right?). By using these same initials to relate to some crap about Christianity that a small percentage of people give a damn about, I begin to think the posts are related to said chronicle and the negativity involved makes me sadfaced.

Please, think of my loose grip to reality when you make future complaints about Christian stuff.

Morbid889:

Two pages of this? Really?

You're not really defending your cause, reading your post almost makes it sound like you're making animal noises, and speaking in tongue. Witch Finders over exaggerates many different religions, if you take it seriously, then you might as well damn every Catholic for having a pocket "Malleus Maleficarum" on hand at all times.

There's a difference between fact, and fluff. Although, I'd like to thank you Christiangoth (*facepalm* at having to write that name) for opening my eyes to Christian sleep away camp.

No offense, really. It's just rare to see a topic like this.

Naw not too rare - Hell run over to some Disney site and I'm sure you'll run into some crap about Mickey Mouse being rendered as colored mainly black as advocacy of some shit or another. Fact of the matter is simple - the day white wolf takes the stance that thier books are meant to imply literal definition and accurate view of the world we live in... Then issues like this will matter.

Till then at worst it's a mistake, misunderstanding, or fault of interpretation. Because let's face it - even in light of the text (Which I haven't directly referenced) claiming accuracy.. we're talking about a friggen roleplaying book. At the very worst the writer and company believe(d) it true. And most likely - don't care if it is or isn't so long as it helps convey the essence of the matierial thier presenting.

And that's worse case. I'm not actually daring attempt to comment if they were correct or incorrect.

When the WoD corebook is handed out in social studies class as required reading - then I'll likely worry about what "truths" are printed in it. Till then nothing in the books really matters in any way other than in reflection of the setting in question. And again, since these books serve an entertainment medium in the context of a fictional setting - it really is at worst an unimportant slip up.