Should the Incarna have Exalted Charms?

Oh yes it is!

Either way, lets test that sentence meaning:

"Quomodo cogis comas tuas sic videri?"

Sounds deep... Means: "How do you get your hair to do that!"

Quod erat demonstrandum. ;)

Indeed! It always sounds something said by a great mind! hehe :P

Well... In the beginning of first edition, I thought the Incarna had  exalted charms plus some special powers specific to their nature. I guess since they infused part of their essence into the blank shards created by autochthon and, each type of exalted charms reflects, in some way or another, the parts of those essences; that would make some sense.

But with time and the development of the game I completely changed my mind! First, Exalted are a specific kind of being who results from the symbiosis of a human with the exalted essence, turning each kind of exalted unique, similar to the other kinds, but in many aspects completely different!
This means they should and must have their own powers, powers clearly linked to the patron Incarna /Dragon, but different in essence.
Second, I think it would turn the Incarna kind of boring if they had what the exalted have. They are gods, but not just gods, they are Incarna; therefore, they should have god charms and specific charms that define their purviews, nature and motivation. Some of those powers may have similar effects to their exalted powers, but must be fundamentally different.
All in all, we can't forget this game is about exalted and how they surpass all odds, it is not about gods. Exalted charms are all about defying the loom, god's charms aren't. That is one of the things that make them fundamentally more powerful then gods!
Incarna may have sorcery and Sidereal M.Arts, but not exalted charms.

Of course there are some evidence that contradicts my view, since the Maidens created the new Sidereal charms, charms that have a lesser breaking effect on the Loom, but again I can create a species that reproduces through mitosis, but I can't reproduce myself through that medium. My cells can, but not me!

Maese Mateo:

(not THE yozi, but possibly ontly the jouten..in the same way that you summon ligier without banishing the green sun)

This is a false distinction.  Every jouten of Malfeas is fully Malfeas.

That aside, no, the Incarnae do not and should not have Exalted Charms.  The claims about, "Oh, the Exalted only killed Primordials when they dogpiled them 100-to-1" are nice and all, but that's not told to us in the books.  What we do know is that:

1) Merela killed one barehanded.
2) Other Solars later became better fighters than Merela was when she killed one barehanded.

So it is at least entirely possible that certain Solars are one-on-one superior to certain Primordials.  They're cool like that.

Epimetheus:

At what essence level? A full circle is good enough to take on any being at essence 5. I think it's being restated at six. The point is solars have the capability to surpass any being in the setting as they grow and become more powerful. The game was built on the fact that the solars are the most powerful entities in the setting.

PrinzMegahertz:

Epimetheus:

At what essence level? A full circle is good enough to take on any being at essence 5. I think it's being restated at six. The point is solars have the capability to surpass any being in the setting as they grow and become more powerful. The game was built on the fact that the solars are the most powerful entities in the setting.

But then, why didn't the Solars conquer heaven in their madness. Why did they refer the Incarnae in the first place, even though they themselve were superiour. Why was it important that the UCS withdrew his support from his chosen? If the Incarnae were this weak, then Kejak would have disposed of them a long time ago and have heaven ruled by sids.

PrinzMegahertz:

But then, why didn't the Solars conquer heaven in their madness. Why did they refer the Incarnae in the first place, even though they themselve were superiour. Why was it important that the UCS withdrew his support from his chosen? If the Incarnae were this weak, then Kejak would have disposed of them a long time ago and have heaven ruled by sids.

• The Solars were fractious. If any one Solar and his goals could steer Creation unhindered, it could very well have led to the conquest and subjugation of Heaven and the gods. It could also just as well have led to a Cauldronist's vision being realized, destroying Creation utterly. That the Lawgivers were first pious, then dutiful, then paranoid fucks prevented them from overthrowing anyone but individuals of their own ranks as they fought over the toy they had been given.

• In the First Age, there was little difference between Heaven and Creation, at least as far as Exalted lifestyles were concerned. Solars had as much or more wealth at their fingertips as any god but the Incarnae (who would plow much of their wealth back into operations budgets anyway, instead of doomsday weapons). Why conquer a place that has sworn to stay out of your way and isn't actually any different from what you have now, or even potentially worse in some ways?

• Those not too full of hubris would recognize that, even if they would likely win, Heaven and Creation would not be better for it and it would be a hard-fought conquest. Even if elder Solars can single-handedly decimate the Aerial Legion, the destruction and effort necessary to do so and the damage inflicted on what you're fighting for hardly makes it worth it. Especially with the above bullet point in mind. Spirits in general may be pussies relative to the Exalted, but Heaven is filled with the cream of the crop and those guys aren't pushovers. Yo-Ping alone could make an Exalt's armies worthless, turning a fight into "lone uppity Exalt vs. all of Heaven."

• Most of the bullet points above are based on observations of Solar behavior and power. Sidereals and Lunars are not Solars; they are not motivated or empowered in the same way. Sidereals are especially ill-suited to overturning and then ruling the Heavenly City; even Dragon-Bloods would be better at it in many ways. So, the Solars have plenty of very compelling reasons not to squash and take the place of the Incarnae, and their lessers have even less reason.

• There aren't actually a large amount of super-duper-elder Solars. As with other Exalts, Solars get themselves killed often, even in the First Age. Those old enough to really orchestrate and carry through a plan like taking Heaven are also the most paranoid, and probably also recognize full well that it takes very little effort for other Solars to throw off any puppet master mindfuckery the elder attempts. As soon as said triumphant elder strolls into the Central District to declare himself the winnar, untold backstabbing and maneuvering begins and the elder is at best lost in a storm-tossed sea of politics. At worst, he's dead or completely marginalized by power blocs sufficiently paranoid to stick together enough to quash anything the elder wants to do while simultaneously nullifying any real efforts at control from their own ranks.

If Loras, the Death Sun, a ghost, can learn all Solar charms, the Unconquered Sun sure as hell should be able to.

I think that the Incarnae imparted their own charms to their chosen, in a similar manner to how the Yozis imparted their charms to the Infernals. Each exalt type is fundamentally like their patron in their themes and ways of manipulating Essence. It's hard to give what you don't have. Remeber, the Incarnae are not ordinary gods. There's no reason to assume they are restricted to regular spirit charms. And also remember, only the Maidens can design new Sidereal charms. How could they create something that's beyond their own capabilities? There was also mention in the core book that the Incarnae taught the exalted their first charms. Again, how can someone teach what they don't know? I think there's more than ample evidence that the Incarnae have the charms of their chosen.

Odd Man Out:

Put another way; the Incarnae are designed to be the absolute best at what they do which Creation's Rules will allow. The Exalted are designed to ignore Creation's Rules when it suits them.

I'd disagree.

Ultimately, I think the thing that holds the Incarnae back is being overly bound to the abstract. They tap vast cosmological forces relevant to their individual portfolios, yes... but the Unconquered Sun's perfection can, by definition, only express itself in a finite number of ways because perfection excludes the imperfect no matter how meritorious it may be. Luna can, by definition, express herself in a virtually infinite number of variations, but is incapable of producing consistency. I think you get where I'm going here.

What Exalts do have nothing to do with ignoring Creation's rules. No, ignoring rules is what Fair Folk do in Shaping combat. What Exalts do is -worse-. They take those abstract concepts of their divine patrons and synthicize them with less abstract concepts from their individual personal experiences (attributes and abilities) in order to generate new expressions of both. In short, they exploit Creation's rules viciously in ways that beings operating on the abstract or ideal level can only partly comprehend.

It's been discussed before, but my impression is that the thing that ultimately won the Primordial War wasn't the Exalted's raw power. It was the fact that they were taking that power and doing things with it that the Primordials couldn't comprehend because it was so far out of scale to them. The Exalted ruthlessly exploited the fact that Malfeas had transcended Melee combat by dragging Malfeas down into a sword-fight that their abstract principles had imbued with cosmic implications.

For reference, I'll pull out an old favorite saw.

"Never argue with an idiot, they'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

Granted, of course.... just as your assertion that Exalts break the laws of Creation Physics whereas Incarnae are bound by them is supposition, so too is mine that Exalts use old rules in new and unanticipated ways.

CaffeineDelusions:

Granted, of course.... just as your assertion that Exalts break the laws of Creation Physics whereas Incarnae are bound by them is supposition, so too is mine that Exalts use old rules in new and unanticipated ways.

Yes, but yours is the more interesting and ultimately relatable supposition. "Breaking Creation physics" isn't a particularly useful turn of phrase. The Primordials and their Creation inflicts its rules on the entire universe. It is these rules that all the players on the stage exploit to varying degrees to do what they do. They're all fighting over the same toy in the same game. Some are just better at it.

/The thing about heaven is that the exalted pretty much ruled it. The solars had seasons and the sidereals had better positions controlling the divisions. They could do whatever the hell they wanted and with the contacts they amassed, not even the incarnae could touch them. That's the Unconquered sun didn't fight his chosen he just turned his back on them. Also, you know you aren't in charge when you are being interrogated by the people you uplifted.

Plague of Hats:

• Most of the bullet points above are based on observations of Solar behavior and power. Sidereals and Lunars are not Solars; they are not motivated or empowered in the same way. Sidereals are especially ill-suited to overturning and then ruling the Heavenly City; even Dragon-Bloods would be better at it in many ways. So, the Solars have plenty of very compelling reasons not to squash and take the place of the Incarnae, and their lessers have even less reason.

This is really the only point I contend with. Sidereals are ill-suited to overturn heaven overtly but they certainly have ways to be the power behind the throne instigating ways to cripple the opponents indirectly and dealing in the shadows.

PrinzMegahertz:

But then, why didn't the Solars conquer heaven in their madness. Why did they refer the Incarnae in the first place, even though they themselve were superiour. Why was it important that the UCS withdrew his support from his chosen? If the Incarnae were this weak, then Kejak would have disposed of them a long time ago and have heaven ruled by sids.

Simple:

Exalteds dont want to do the job of the Incarnae. In Siderals 1st Ed. said that the solars rarelly go to Heaven durin the First Age....they care little and nothing about Heaven. That0s why siderals are so important.

Also, why to rebel agains the Incarnae if they give you the Mandate of Creation?..You can do any horrible deed you want, and no god will do anything because you have the backing of the Big Boss..and that's what soalrs do in the First Age.

There is no reazon to betray someone that not only let you do anything you want, but also help you keep the whole Creation in your control, enforcing your rulership.

They dont kill the Incarnae because ti was easy for them in that way.

Plague of Hats:

Yes, but yours is the more interesting and ultimately relatable supposition. "Breaking Creation physics" isn't a particularly useful turn of phrase.

Holy... did I just get complimented by Plague of Hats?

How the hell did that happen? Is there a camera somewhere around here? Did I trip, knock my head, and end up in a coma until next April?

My world is crumbling here.... everything I thought was true and immutable about how the world works is now in doubt. Is the sky still blue? Is Obama still President? Have the elder gods awakened? Are we still reasonably sure that Alaskan crab fishing is the profession with the highest injury and mortality rate in the world?

Where's the ledge? Where's the bottom? Where's the roof?! I need something solid to cling to here!

(Pst... apologies, Hats, if this was over the top, but to be fair your sharp tongue over the past couple of years has kind of inspired it.)

Epimetheus:

This is really the only point I contend with. Sidereals are ill-suited to overturn heaven overtly but they certainly have ways to be the power behind the throne instigating ways to cripple the opponents indirectly and dealing in the shadows.

They're also the only ones with the foresight to see what a really bad idea it would be. Think you're bogged down with paperwork now? Imagine how much more it'll be when you have to fill out (in triplicate) forms for the rising, setting and obscuring of the sun.