Should the Incarna have Exalted Charms?

Shadowfang:

If Loras, the Death Sun, a ghost, can learn all Solar charms, the Unconquered Sun sure as hell should be able to.

I agree with this logic, but in the opposite direction. If we're talking about what should be, I don't personally think Loras the Death Sun should be able to learn Solar Charms. I'm happy with the idea that the Unconquered Sun can't either, but does have Spirit Charms that are earth-shatteringly powerful for what they are and use the same themes and expressions as Solar Charms. The idea that Exalted learn Charms that make them more like their patron (or potentially invent Charms that alter their patron) is a transformative angle that I think is best kept to Infernals. It helps flavor them up, but only muddies the thematics of the others.

If we're talking about what is in the canonical view, Loras the Death Sun has Solar Charms and, as Neph said, the Unconquered Sun doesn't.

Shadowfang:

And also remember, only the Maidens can design new Sidereal charms. How could they create something that's beyond their own capabilities? There was also mention in the core book that the Incarnae taught the exalted their first charms. Again, how can someone teach what they don't know?

Two counterexamples: Infernals can learn Holy Charms, but they can never, ever use them. For them, these Charms are intellectual knowledge that they are unable to put into practice, like the understanding of how to push with both hands if you've already lost one of them. More directly, in First Edition, an Exalted who submitted himself to be "recycled" by Autochthon lost the ability to cast sorcery, but retained knowledge of all spells and could still teach those spells to others. I think there's good precedent that in the Exalted world, sometimes magic prowess is a thing you can know without actually being able to apply.

Shadowfang:

If Loras, the Death Sun, a ghost, can learn all Solar charms, the Unconquered Sun sure as hell should be able to.

Loras isn't just any kind of ghost, but a hekatonkhire born from the nightmares the Neverborn had regarding the Solars that killed them.

I think that the Incarnae imparted their own charms to their chosen, in a similar manner to how the Yozis imparted their charms to the Infernals

Except that this is flatly stated to not be the case.  In fact, it's why Green Sun Princes are weird when compared to the other Exalted.

. Each exalt type is fundamentally like their patron in their themes and ways of manipulating Essence. It's hard to give what you don't have. Remeber, the Incarnae are not ordinary gods. There's no reason to assume they are restricted to regular spirit charms.

They flavored Chosen that aren't gods with their divine ideals.  It's an odd process, but we'll likely get more on it when Glories of the Most High is released.  Note that we've already been told that the Incarnae are gods and get divine Charms like in Roll1 and unique powers like the Third Circle Demons in Roll2. 

And also remember, only the Maidens can design new Sidereal charms. How could they create something that's beyond their own capabilities?

 
They don't.  They alter the Loom to accept such new Charms without bending and warping it.  That aside, it could be a deal like Demon-Wracking shout (see below).

There was also mention in the core book that the Incarnae taught the exalted their first charms. Again, how can someone teach what they don't know? I think there's more than ample evidence that the Incarnae have the charms of their chosen.

Gods can teach Demon-Wracking Shout but are incapable of learning it.  Presumably, they did a lot of coaching to the early Exalted on the basics of Essence usage, and a lot were probably freaked out the the only thing the Solars and more potent Lunars needed to reach the basic raw power of the greatest gods was a high mundane trait rating pair.

Stupid Loserman:

Two counterexamples: Infernals can learn Holy Charms, but they can never, ever use them. For them, these Charms are intellectual knowledge that they are unable to put into practice, like the understanding of how to push with both hands if you've already lost one of them. More directly, in First Edition, an Exalted who submitted himself to be "recycled" by Autochthon lost the ability to cast sorcery, but retained knowledge of all spells and could still teach those spells to others. I think there's good precedent that in the Exalted world, sometimes magic prowess is a thing you can know without actually being able to apply.

The thing is, both of those examples you mentioned are powers that those beings once had, but lost due to extenuating circumstances. Normally beings are incapable of learning powers they can't use. A Lunar can't learn and teach Solar charms no matter how much he wants to or how much he studies them. Infernals can learn holy charms because deep down inside they have an Exalted Essence that is (or once was) capable of learning those charms. Unfortunately, due to their infernal taint and creature of darkness status, they hit a wall when they actually try to use those powers, but regardless, the potential is still there, somewhere within them. Likewise, Deathlords and recyled Autochthonian Solars still remember the Solar Circle spells they once knew in life, even though they can no longer cast them. That is why they are able to teach them to others. But other beings, like Dragon Blooded, couldn't learn or teach a Solar circle spell, not even for academic purposes.

Adamant Siaka:

Loras isn't just any kind of ghost, but a hekatonkhire born from the nightmares the Neverborn had regarding the Solars that killed them.

So, like the Unconquered Sun, he is a creation of the Primordials. If a dead god's nightmare can use Solar charms, why shouldn't the "ultimate" creation of their once living selves be able to? You just admitted that the Primordials are capable of creating beings that can weild Solar charms (the Deathlords being the other examples), and they created the Unconquered Sun. I don't understand why people are so hellbent on preventing the US from having charms that many lesser beings possess. How else do you explain his indomitability in combat? Spirit charms alone are certainly not enough to allow one to be able to pose a serious threat to a Primordial in single combat!

Shadowfang:

So, like the Unconquered Sun, he is a creation of the Primordials. If a dead god's nightmare can use Solar charms, why shouldn't the "ultimate" creation of their once living selves be able to? You just admitted that the Primordials are capable of creating beings that can weild Solar charms (the Deathlords being the other examples), and they created the Unconquered Sun. I don't understand why people are so hellbent on preventing the US from having charms that many lesser beings possess. How else do you explain his indomitability in combat? Spirit charms alone are certainly not enough to allow one to be able to pose a serious threat to a Primordial in single combat!

They're also capable of inflicting the Great Curse, but that only happens when they die.  As chthonic world beings shuffled off the immortal coil, their nightmares are real and solid, and can be reflective of singular events (like dying when death was supposedly something that they were beyond).

Also, I can explain his indomitability in combat the same way one can explain Ligier getting 23 bonus successes on every Craft roll or Erembour turning people into shadowy demon things.  Again, consult Roll 2's section on 3rd Circle Demons.

The peculiarities of Loras does not strike me as a good argument for Incarna having Exalted charms.

Adamant Siaka:

They flavored Chosen that aren't gods with their divine ideals.  It's an odd process, but we'll likely get more on it when Glories of the Most High is released.  Note that we've already been told that the Incarnae are gods and get divine Charms like in Roll1 and unique powers like the Third Circle Demons in Roll2. 

Note that that isn't limited to the Incarnae, either.  Most Rank 5 deities have unique Third Circle Demon-style powers related to their domain...  although we haven't had many statted out yet.  The god of peace has an effect that forces everyone in the area to lay down their arms and parlay, say.

Of course, I don't really get why that couldn't be expressed as a really, really buff version of Domain Manipulation Scenerio with a really broad domain, but whatever.

CaffeineDelusions:

Are we still reasonably sure that Alaskan crab fishing is the profession with the highest injury and mortality rate in the world?

Because being a huge nerd amuses me - Alaskan crab fishing isn't even the most dangerous job in the USA. That position belongs to the President of the United States.

lumber_of_the_beast:

Because being a huge nerd amuses me - Alaskan crab fishing isn't even the most dangerous job in the USA. That position belongs to the President of the United States.

Yeah, but I'd already made one joke at the executive branch's expense.

Exalted Charms are software that was designed after the Incarnae's hardware was developed, and they were developed to run on different, highly specialized hardware with no thought for running it on the old stuff. Sure, the new software takes some thematic inspiration from the Incarnae's respective software packages, but it's quite different in implementation.

CaffeineDelusions:

It's been discussed before, but my impression is that the thing that ultimately won the Primordial War wasn't the Exalted's raw power. It was the fact that they were taking that power and doing things with it that the Primordials couldn't comprehend because it was so far out of scale to them. The Exalted ruthlessly exploited the fact that Malfeas had transcended Melee combat by dragging Malfeas down into a sword-fight that their abstract principles had imbued with cosmic implications.

For reference, I'll pull out an old favorite saw.

"Never argue with an idiot, they'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

Granted, of course.... just as your assertion that Exalts break the laws of Creation Physics whereas Incarnae are bound by them is supposition, so too is mine that Exalts use old rules in new and unanticipated ways.

Let me expand a bit as the above was said typed out as I made a beeline for the door.

My contention isn't that Exalted operate under different physics than the Incarnae, but that they're not tied to what might be called Creation's system specs. Sol, Luna and the Maidens were made to fill particular niches forever and were given exactly the amount of power the Primordials could conceive them as needing. They're fairly static beings who are a little broader in thought patterns than their solipistic creators because they were forged by committees of such beings. Autocthon took the level of power the major players in the Setting have and placed it in something that can learn and cheat/operate outside their nature (which the other heavies couldn't).

Certainly, the Exalted didn't win by just hitting the Primordials with a hammer (all the time, for some of them the nail treatment may have been the best option) or a symbolic scalpel (lead it somewhere with no shadow!). Human flexibility played a large part, but I suspect it wasn't always the ability to force issues to micro-scales that did it. Just having the capacity for an idea not related to a Primordials purview or spirit's domain gives a certain edge in the cosmic/symbolic brawls.

Edit: Took too long typing. Mouse said it better.

Odd, this reminds me of something that happens among my friends now and again.

We're both arguing for basically the same side of the discussion, and using different words.

This has been summed up in the following way in my circle.

Friend 1: "It's green."
Friend 2: "No, it's green."
Friend 1: "I'm telling you, it's green."
Friend 2: "Look, I understand what you're saying, and I respect your opinion, but in all honesty it is green."
Friend 1: "It's fucking green!"

Egh. My original post suffered from lack of clarity which I then made worse with a quick edit in an attempt to sum the idea up in too little time.

Maese Mateo:

There is no reazon to betray someone that not only let you do anything you want, but also help you keep the whole Creation in your control, enforcing your rulership.

PrinzMegahertz:

No paranoid solar thought that heaven was plotting his downfall and considered a first strike as the perfect means of defense?

A few Solars did get the crazy idea that their heavenly advisors, the Sidereals, might be scheming against them.  According to DotFA, they were institutionalized.

Sure, some Solar might have gotten these ideas- but enough to pull it off if the rest didn't want to?  Not likely.  That was basically what kept the Cauldronists from just smashing everything.