Mage: The Awakening

Re: Out with new and in with the old

Deimos_Masque — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 16:08:03 GMT

I can see how you could think that, I didn't really explain why she was a perfect fit. It was because her philosophies of leadership, strength, improving yourself and her belief that what didn't kill you made you stronger; all fit very well into both those Orders. It had nothing to do with the social roles of the orders and everything to do with which philosophy fit what her player's vision of the chracter fit best.

My point was more about that she didn't fit into any of the Traditions so I didn't really explain the thinkings, sorry about the seeming contradiction there. My bad.

Re: Out with new and in with the old

Blunt Vorpal — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 13:29:27 GMT

Deimos_Masque:
But in Awakening she's a perfect fit for the Adamantine Arrow or even the Silver Ladder.

What happened to choosing Orders based on something other than social roles? No, I'm not trying to be an ass, but it seems to me that you're contradicting what you said over here, and I'm curious why you're choosing what you did.

Re: Out with new and in with the old

Deimos_Masque — Sun, 05 Jul 2009 18:48:03 GMT

I've even found certain concepts that originally would have been forced into an Tradition because "that's the way the game is" or have to be an Orphan (thus marginalized because it's harder to learn magic alone) are easier to do.

For example the infamous Raggedy Anne from my old Mage: The Rotten Apple Actual Play thread (wow I hope people still remember that one 146 pages typed and written like a novel).

A fencer who dresses like a punk rock version of a rag doll, who aspires to be like an archetypal storybook Prince. Where would she have fit in the Traditions? Never am really sure.

But in Awakening she's a perfect fit for the Adamantine Arrow or even the Silver Ladder.

Re: Out with new and in with the old

Troy — Sun, 05 Jul 2009 18:11:28 GMT

Deimos_Masque:
You'd be right, I've found by converting and adding to my old Ascension setting that you can do anything you wanted to do in Ascension you could do just as good in Awakening, and in many cases you could do it better because you didn't have the baggage that most of the Traditions had.

It's a good exercise to help you make the transition from one game to the other, to get a good handle on how it works and the themes and concepts you can explore. I did the same thing with Changeling: The Lost.

But back to Awakening-Ascension. I was an Akashic Brotherhood fanatic, right? So, when I got Awakening I immediately took a liking to the Adamantine Arrow, of course. But when you just let it all sink in you discover that each of the 5 Orders can correspond to one of the factions in the Akashic Brotherhood. The Silver Ladder equate to the Shi-Ren legalists. The Vajrapani equate to the Addamantine Arrow (their name is even alike). The Li-Hai equate to the Free Council (and the odd thing is, I loved the Li-Hai but am ambivalent toward the Free Council). The Kannagara and Jnani can sort of be interchanged between the Guardians of the Veil and the Mysterium, but I think Jnani leans more toward Guardians of the Veil. But when you reach to the Akashic extended families you can put the Sulsa in the Guardians of the Veil and split the Wu Lung up into Silver Ladder and Mysterium. Mine is but one interpretation, the possibilities are just about endless.

Re: Out with new and in with the old

Cleverest of Things — Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:05:58 GMT

People often forget that the NWoD doesn't have the same pre-made culture setup for its splats, but that doesn't mean that players are supposed to ignore that. If you want to play any of the old Traditions, you can. Sure, you won't have a write-up in a book, that tells you the personality that you have based on your magical style and your ethnicity. But you still have the option of keeping any of the pre-made ideas and images you liked, and making it yourself with the tools granted. Want a Son of Ether? Free Council Necromancers can focus on the matter rather than the death, their "nihilism" more of religious atheism and science-mindedness. The Verbena? A Legacy of Thrysus (Probably Adamantine Arrow) that have specifically adopted pagan magical styles. Though you can literally ressurect the Traditions using Legacies, you can thematically ressurect them just about anywhere. In a given city, the major groups of Awakened might just so happen to look EXACTLY like the old Ascension--I'm seeing a Council made up of those five tradition-mashups earlier, flavoured very heavily off of Ascension's beliefs and practices. Every Council of mages has different priorities, different knowledge/teachings, and a different feel. This goes the same for individual mages. Because of that, Storytellers and Characters can turn Awakening into pretty much anything they want, INCLUDING a twisted version of Ascension.

Re: Out with new and in with the old

Deimos_Masque — Sun, 05 Jul 2009 08:24:27 GMT

Troy:
What I did when I first read Awakening was instantly convert Ascension concepts into Awakening concepts. Awakening's Orders have such a broad interpretation that multiple Traditions can fit within them. On some level, every Ascension concept could fit within a single Awakening Order. I think that's what appeals to a lot of people about Awakening.

You'd be right, I've found by converting and adding to my old Ascension setting that you can do anything you wanted to do in Ascension you could do just as good in Awakening, and in many cases you could do it better because you didn't have the baggage that most of the Traditions had.

Re: Out with new and in with the old

Troy — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 14:56:45 GMT

The Cult of Ecstasy, Euthanatos and Akashic Brotherhood would be combined into one Tradition.
The Sons of Ether and Virtual Adepts would be combined into one Tradition.
Order of Hermes and Celestial Chorus would be combined into one Tradition.
Verbena and Dreamspeakers would be combined into one Tradition.
Hollow Ones would remain the outcasts and be one Tradition.

That's one way to do it. What I did when I first read Awakening was instantly convert Ascension concepts into Awakening concepts. Awakening's Orders have such a broad interpretation that multiple Traditions can fit within them. On some level, every Ascension concept could fit within a single Awakening Order. I think that's what appeals to a lot of people about Awakening.

Re: Out with new and in with the old

Ophidimancer — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 13:53:16 GMT

In my opinion, replacing the five Orders with five Traditions changes the setting of the game pretty drastically. As is, the Orders don't dictate magical style, mostly just magical ethics you'd also probably end up throwing out the Atlantis story entirely, which is not a good or bad thing, just a change.

The biggest problem is that each Tradition carried with it two different associations: culture and praxis, or magical style. When those two match up, it works fine, but sometimes you get culture that implies a number of different magical styles, and then what is a mage supposed to do? Say you were a Chinese ritual sorcerer who knew nothing about Hermes and wanted nothing to do with Western magical tradition, but didn't fit into the mold of the mystic Akashic Brotherhood?

I guess if I had to, I'd pare the magical styles down to:

High Ritual - Order of Hermes
Witchcraft/Shamanism - New name mixing Verbena and Dreamspeakers?
Mysticism - Akashic Brotherhood
Scientific Method - New name mixing Virtual Adepts and Sons of Ether?
Theurgy - Celestial Chorus

Re: Out with new and in with the old

Michael — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 06:41:38 GMT

I'm not sure that is a very good basis for it. Some of the vampire clans may have similiar names but, they're actually very different, and the clans don't function in the way they did in Masquerade.

Re: Out with new and in with the old

MrSandman — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 03:24:06 GMT

Mendrian:
Well, first, the idea here is basically to throw out the Atlantean Orders and replace them with oWoD's Traditions

Kinda. The idea is to cull Ascension's orders down to five and fit them into Awakening's cosmology. The best example of what I mean is what was done with Clans in Requiem.

Re: Out with new and in with the old

djarb — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 00:49:19 GMT

MrSandman:
I had found my old copy of revised Mage the Ascension ( I think I am the only one on the forums that liked it)

Mostly irrelevant, but I was and am a huge fan of Jess Heinig's version of Mage (i.e. Revised edition before Bill Bridges took over).

Re: Out with new and in with the old

Mendrian — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 07:34:23 GMT

I understand completely; I wasn't trying to dismiss the idea, just trying to make sure the discussion started on a commonly understood footing.

Well, first, the idea here is basically to throw out the Atlantean Orders and replace them with oWoD's Traditions, more or less, right? Or is the goal to replace the Paths with the old Traditions?

Re: Out with new and in with the old

MrSandman — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 07:08:03 GMT

Mendrian:
Not to sound like a broken record or a naysayer: etc

Oh, I agree completely with you, and I understand why the game is the way it is. And to be clear I like the Orders in Awakening that is not why I wrote this post. I wanted to discuss what the setting might have looked like if WW would have went a with a different direction with the Orders.
Never mind I was bored and wanted to play a little "what if". I did not mean for it be a very serious subject.

Re: Out with new and in with the old

Ophidimancer — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 04:07:02 GMT

When the Chronicler's Guide comes out no doubt it will include ways to play around with Orders and such. If I were to play around wit them, I would probably just take the cap off the number of Orders and just make up Orders as I go along, merging them with Magical Tradition somewhat. The base mechanics of an Order are basically just three Rote Specialties, after all. It's not hard at all to make up new Orders if that's the baseline difference. It's not like the Covenants of Vampire, which have various benefits balanced against each other.

Re: Out with new and in with the old

Blunt Vorpal — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 01:43:01 GMT

The thing about Requiem is that it took the old clans and blended them between clans and covenant- especially the Tremere and Tziminscee giving birth to the Ordo Dracul. So, this is how I see the old traditions being reborn; mostly Path, with a few order tossed in at the end:

Verbana and Dreamspeakers fit the Thyrsus very nicely; the path is very witchy is some parts, and shamanistic in others.

Obrimos match the Celestial Chorus and Order of Hermes. Faith/Angels on the one hand, and your stereotypical wizard on the other. "Hermetic" style magic is actually fairly strong in the entire setting, so you'd have to peel it back a little to just this path.

Depending on how you look at them, the Cult of Ecstasy fits under either Thyrsus or Acanthus; this tradition was a group of escatic visionaries that often appeared irresponsible. The former part fits well into the Thyrsus escatic themes, while the reliance on visions and irresponcible luck is Acanthus.

Euthanatos snuggle well into the Moros assassin stereotype.

The Ahl-i-Batin are basically Arabic Mastigos. Their sister tradition, the Taftâni, could fit into either the Mastigos demon summoner themes, or the Obrimos with their outrageous magics.

The last three traditions don't seem to fit into paths, but rather the Orders: Sons of Ether and the Virtual Adapts seem to be sliding into techno-savvy Free Coucil, while the monastic Akashic Brotherhood found a new home as part of the Adamantine Arrow. The brotherhood fits well into the honorable Arrow with its specialized Fighting Style, but the two techno groups are a little strained- I feel that the SoE and VA are really reborn in the Forgemasters, Transhuman Engineers, and Threnodists Legacies more than anything else.

Never touched any of the Ebony or Jade Kingdom books, so can't comment on those traditions.

If I had to do a direct translation, then I would make the Paths act as the new Traditions, rather than the Orders.