Mage: The Awakening

Re: Ideas for new non Atlantean Orders ?

SunlessNick — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 01:07:30 GMT

Now, after the Hunter coming out, I think that Mage is best based on Tiers - First is Cabal, Second would be Craft, Third Orders and Ministries. - WyrdHamster

I agree, though in my case, I would make the Diamond Orders and Seer Ministries into one third-tier group each.

Re: Ideas for new non Atlantean Orders ?

Deimos_Masque — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 18:17:46 GMT

Thanks is nice to know I can disappear for almost a year and still be remembered.

As for the topic at hand, let me throw in my two cents.

When I started playing Mage the Awakening I have to admit I didn't see alot of potential in the Orders at first, that coupled with some really violent flame wars on the old forums when the game was released caused me to almost give up on even trying to play Mage. However the more I read, the more I thought about them and then more I experimented the wider in scope I saw the Orders. Eventually I realized that any character I could make in Ascension I could make in Awakening with very little change overall to the original concept. Even better characters in the old game that I would regate to an old Craft or even play as an Orphan I could now easily fit in the Orders. Because the Orders are secret societies with a philosophy, not like the old Traditions that in many ways were religions each in their own way.

I don't see them as "player roles" even though people think that all they are. I'll give some interesting concepts that work perfectly in the scope of the various orders but don't seem to be as cookie cutter as people like to claim the orders are.

Adamantine Arrow: A socialite who views the intrigues of high society as the highest form of combat, A runaway who has been living on the streets and has survived by her wits and faced challenges that have forged her into a stronger person, A Cultural Revivalist who sees her fight to save the old ways of her culture as a battle against time.

Free Council: A Spray Paint artist who draws mystical insight from the graffiti around the city, A completely Luddite Witch who believes that technology interfears with human culture and kills it's mystism, A stage magician who shows feats of magic to the sleepers during her show, A philosopher who loves mingling with humanity.

Guardians of the Veil: A Funeral Home director who helps the ghosts find peace, A unrepentent gambler who relizes on luck to get him through situations, A New Age Book writer who writes both truth and lies into her work, A very unsubtle assassin who takes out very public targets.

Mysterium: A nhilist that believes that all intellectual works are dead in modern culture, A magus who worries about accumulating knowledge to become unstoppable, A Medieval Poetry expert that is more likely to forge old works and "verify" them as he is to find a real one, A flower shop owner who grafts plants in the style of Mendel.

Silver Ladder: A Traditional Chinese Mandarin who only cares about the fate of his own people and practices, A swordsman who believes in the strength of leadership, a socially domineering bitch who believes the words she speaks are the only ones that matter, An violinist who uses music to inspire others.

All these concepts fit perfectly within the philosophy of their orders with out having to hit a single point of the stereotype of the order. In fact some won't even have dots in skillls considered "necessary" for members of the various orders. (A Arrow with no combat skills? A Libertine with no science or computer? A Guardian with no stealth or subterfuge?)

As for some other complaints like "Why do the Arrow listen to the Ladder" well the easy answer is "they don't always do so." The Silver Ladder doesn't always lead the Consilium and the Arrow doesn't always think whatever the Ladder says is the right way. It just a starting place to give you a view into Mage society.

As for the Powerbrokers and the Theurges being so similiar they might as well be the same? You should check them again. The Powerbrokers worry about temporal power while the Theurges seek to inspire the sleepers with spirituality. Also the factions are just broad archetypes for you to pare down into the local factions that make up your city.

Not sure what else I can say yet, but I'm sure I'll think of more later.

Re: Ideas for new non Atlantean Orders ?

Michael — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:32:43 GMT

I still have a copy of that article as well, it was very well written.

Re: Ideas for new non Atlantean Orders ?

Deimos_Masque — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:03:56 GMT

WyrdHamster:
Long time ago, Daimon Masque made his article about Apostates and introduce there idea of Crafts - cross between full blown Orders and large Cabals - various groups of Mages going with one idea of using magic, based on particular style. It was before Magical Traditions book, what made a material a bit redundant.

Actually that was me, Deimos Masque (But I guess Daimon Masque is close enough for government work) but it's nice to know my "Going Alone" article is still remembered fondly. Though I wouldn't say that the idea of Crafts is redundant now with Magical Traditions because I saw Crafts as something a little less than an actual Magical Tradition but more as a Mega-Cabal of Apostates.

Re: Ideas for new non Atlantean Orders ?

Michael — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 14:04:11 GMT

re: WyrdHamster

I agree with your central idea of using the tier system, however, you might consider the factions of the Orders as the third tier. They tend to have alot more internal strength than the Orders as a whole.

Re: Ideas for new non Atlantean Orders ?

MrSandman — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:46:30 GMT

Ophidimancer:
Yes, and it's "tenets."

proofread fail

Re: Ideas for new non Atlantean Orders ?

WyrdHamster — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:14:00 GMT

Long time ago, Daimon Masque made his article about Apostates and introduce there idea of Crafts - cross between full blown Orders and large Cabals - various groups of Mages going with one idea of using magic, based on particular style. It was before Magical Traditions book, what made a material a bit redundant.

Now, after the Hunter coming out, I think that Mage is best based on Tiers - First is Cabal, Second would be Craft, Third Orders and Ministries. On this scale the Cultural variants of Orders ( like Indian Pentacle ) would also be Second Tier. Crafts can be used once more, as groups going with only Traditions, making game more diverse. I think this idea is good, adding to game even more variety to ideas of using magic in modern times.

Re: Ideas for new non Atlantean Orders ?

Ophidimancer — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:57:09 GMT

Malcolm:
These are two slightly different things. A mythos is an interpretation what is believed to be true. A magical tradition is a specific set of practices designed to exploit the way magic manifests in the world. You believe in a mythos and practice a tradition.

Well yes, okay, but there can be overlap in that your Mythos and your Tradition may have the same basis. You don't necessarily have to believe in your Tradition, but you can.

Re: Ideas for new non Atlantean Orders ?

Malcolm — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 10:49:58 GMT

Ophidimancer:
Yes I know. They've replaced the word "paradigm" with the word "mythos" and then later with "Magical Tradition" which I think are more appropriate. Mythos, especially, is a lot less deconstructive than paradigm.

These are two slightly different things. A mythos is an interpretation what is believed to be true. A magical tradition is a specific set of practices designed to exploit the way magic manifests in the world. You believe in a mythos and practice a tradition.

Re: Ideas for new non Atlantean Orders ?

Malcolm — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 10:47:13 GMT

Detson:
I forgot that WW employees read these posts; no offense was meant. M:tA is a great game which my players and I enjoy very much.

It's more that the ambiguities are intentional. Remember, we already went through a phase where Malkavians were the wacky guys and Akashics were the kung fu guys, and it evolved into a more flexible approach open to wide interpretation. This time we started with that - lessons learned. That's why even though the AA talks up and down about everybody being badases, not all AAs are badasses.

Re: Ideas for new non Atlantean Orders ?

Michael — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 06:51:01 GMT

I have a feeling the problems that people (including myself) have with the setting are probably intentional. Writing the Orders as monolithic organisations, but also massively dispersed at the same time, allows everyone alot of room to move.

Re: Ideas for new non Atlantean Orders ?

Ophidimancer — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 06:13:57 GMT

MrSandman:
And different Cabals of the same Order do not have to have the same goal. They may even end up having opposing agendas. If two Adamantine Arrow come into conflict they will still have the same tenents despite their goals being in conflict

Yes, and it's "tenets."

MrSandman:
Any discussion of paradigm as Ascension defined it is a moot point. Paradigm in awakening is pretty much set. But individual Mages may have a "personal" paradigm. Meaning that a Mage may be a Silver Ladder and practice the Art through hermetic trappings. Does that make sense?

Yes I know. They've replaced the word "paradigm" with the word "mythos" and then later with "Magical Tradition" which I think are more appropriate. Mythos, especially, is a lot less deconstructive than paradigm.

Re: Ideas for new non Atlantean Orders ?

MrSandman — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 03:17:06 GMT

Ophidimancer:
But it's not the same thing, because the specific Order representatives in your area will have particular goals that they want to achieve and believe in. It's just that the Order provides a code of meta-ethics, in which mages go about achieving their goals.

And different Cabals of the same Order do not have to have the same goal. They may even end up having opposing agendas. If two Adamantine Arrow come into conflict they will still have the same tenents despite their goals being in conflict

Ophidimancer:
Paths are not where you will find the discussion of paradigm in Awakening.

Any discussion of paradigm as Ascension defined it is a moot point. Paradigm in awakening is pretty much set. But individual Mages may have a "personal" paradigm. Meaning that a Mage may be a Silver Ladder and practice the Art through hermetic trappings. Does that make sense?

Re: Ideas for new non Atlantean Orders ?

supreme_bangiras — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 00:44:16 GMT

Fabio Sooner:
supreme_bangiras:
I dont need to be a menber of adamantine arrow to act with honor and protect the weak.

I think that's exactly his point (and by extension, the designers'). You also don't need to be Invictus to believe in meritocracy, or a Carthian to be able to accept change. It's just that you can take your beliefs there (to the Invictus, the Carthians or whatever) for mutual support.

I suspect that all this idea on the Orders needing to be monolithic and having clear, unified goals has deep roots on old character creation habits more than anything else. I, for one, was pleasantly surprised that (almost) none of the social splats in all nWoD games are as globally and irrevocably focused into certain things and goals as, say, the Sabbat was (the exception I can think of are the Conspiracies in Hunter, but that's one tier out of three, so I guess it's cool).

All in all, it makes the players I've known work a little harder to come to a less obvious concept for their characters, since they don't have a myriad of splat-based pre-generated stances for their characters to fall back on. No wonder you're stuck to the idea that "protect the weak" can't be an order philosophy because it would mean no other order members could uphold it; in real life, people and organizations aren't that binary and two-dimensional - fictional characters sometimes are.

But that's just an opinion. If you want to replace them, go ahead - I just think you're coming from what's essentially a non-issue, and it may lead to a less than ideal approach later. Me, I'd just write off the idea of organized bodies whatsoever - as opposed to making them more calcified with extra goals and hard-coded philosophical boundaries - and run the game with castes, clubs, expanded cabals or anything that's not too limiting.

PS.: You are Brazilian, aren't you?

You are right ! How do you know ? Because this post http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/t/3813.aspx?PageIndex=2 ?

Anyway, back to the orders, i dont like the argument of simple concept give me more freedon as a ST, because if thats true i only need the mecanics and ignore the background to play the game. The question is, i play mage because de mecanics or i read the great number of books because i like de evolution of the background ? Background is the essence of the rpg, without it we can play cop and thief like in our childhood...

Thats my answer, but i dont want be rude ok.

The question is that the descrition of Order of Hemes is very more complete than any or all of the orders. Its 1 book against five...

The reality is that withe wolf made a great job in mecanics but the worst in background...

Thats the way that i feel, but i am open to arguments, in special if we can see some comparison againt factions from ascension (looks more understanding for me...).

Again, sorry for the bad english.

Re: Ideas for new non Atlantean Orders ?

Detson — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 22:42:37 GMT

I forgot that WW employees read these posts; no offense was meant. M:tA is a great game which my players and I enjoy very much.