Rules Questions

Here's a new one...

Can a Sin-Eater change their Archetype over time?

What happens when a Celebrant realizes that the party's... well, dead?  What if the Mourner grows weary of always helping the grieving widows and weeping children and decides to look out for themselves for a change?  What if the Reaper comes across some serious ethical issues with judging life or death and hangs up their sword?  Obviously something like this would be a major journey, but who's to say it doesn't happen?  After all, the way the book reads (to me, at least) the Archetype comes out of the way a Sin-Eater reacts to death and a second chance at life.  What if that second life changes their perspectives over time?  Are they allowed to switch from one to the other?  Should there be a ceremony (or Ceremony)?  Is it a gradual change?  Is it something that should be enacted if a character (and the player behind them) consistently acts as if they belonged to another Archetype?

To me, it should be rare, but possible. Not set in stone like the Threshold, more like the Virtue or Vice.

Crabbadon:

Not set in stone like the Threshold, more like the Virtue or Vice.

Like this, but only in extenuating circumstances. It must be a very significant change. ST's discretion, I think.

Also a reply to earlier comments about the appearance of the Geist...
In the game I play, it works like this.
Sin-Eaters give off a deathly aura, that all supernats can detect. Other Sin-Eaters see what I call the Quale - the nature of their Geist. My geist is a shapeless flowing mass, that looks vaguely humanoid. Sin-Eaters cannot see it clearly, but it looms behind my character as a faint outline and causes my character, even though he is small and lithe, to loom as if a giant.

I am gonna vote for rare but possible also.

I believe Crabbadon has it. Virtue and vice don't change on a whim and neither should Archetype. But people change over time and Sin Eaters are still people.

Perhaps the Celebrant overdoses and feels terrible about the innocent person who had to die for the Sin Eater's indiscretions. Over time, he parties less and less and his conscience drives him to the path of the Mourner. His vice might even shift as a result of the new life style.

Kordeth:

This is correct. In theory (and I'm not saying this always works out, but in theory) all X-dot Merits are supposed to be equal. If you don't charge the same cost for all of them, you're making flat-cost Merits far more powerful.

I agree with everythinghere, except for this one observation: since you're purchasing each Ceremony separately, I am reading that act as each ceremony as having a static merit cost.

Kordeth:

Yes. Merits, like all Traits, require you to buy every single dot.

Ah, and suddenly ceremonies don't look awfully cheap. The wording is bad (and the special mention, while clearly now pointing out that they can be more expensive, makes it look like they're a special case): it reads as if you pay 2 per rank rather than 2 per dot counting up all the dots in the hypothetical ranks and they're listed as merits because they're bought with initial merit dots.

My ceremonialist is going to cry now.

Crabbadon:

Kordeth:

Yes. Merits, like all Traits, require you to buy every single dot.

Ah, and suddenly ceremonies don't look awfully cheap. The wording is bad (and the special mention, while clearly now pointing out that they can be more expensive, makes it look like they're a special case): it reads as if you pay 2 per rank rather than 2 per dot counting up all the dots in the hypothetical ranks and they're listed as merits because they're bought with initial merit dots.

My ceremonialist is going to cry now.

My understanding is that the Ceremonies are marked down like Merits, but are held to the XP cost mentioned in the Ceremonies description.

It reads to me that at character creation they are purchased like Merits. However, they are then bought with at a cost of 2 exp per dot with a teacher or 3 exp per dot without one.(which is exactly what it says.)

DragonDragon:

It reads to me that at character creation they are purchased like Merits. However, they are then bought with at a cost of 2 exp per dot with a teacher or 3 exp per dot without one.(which is exactly what it says.)

Rather than the merit standard, which is 2 exp x New Dots.

Note the difference.

I concur.

Counterpoint: "Each ceremony is learned as a separate Merit." p.150.  This reads to me that ceremonies are Merits.  Also, page 64: "New Sin-Eater Merits include Ceremonies, Haunt, and Momento."  And note that the Experience Point Costs table doesn't list Ceremonies.  As such, the "three experience per dot" rule for not having an instructor should be viewed as an extension of the usual rules for Merits, rather than as a replacement for them.  That is, it's an increase in cost over and above what would normally be charged.  That is, pay 50% more if you don't have an instructor. 

IMHO, this business about Merit costs is the nWoD's version of the oWoD's "new dots" vs. "current dots" debate that reared its head during the publication of the Revised lines.  Personally, I'm going to continue to charge 10 xp for a 5-dot ceremony rather than the 30 xp that the writers say I should charge; and I'm only going to charge for intermediate levels of Merits if they would provide benefits on their own (and sometimes not even then, if a higher rating subsumes all of those benefits).  This is how I've been doing it for well over five years, without incident.  I see no reason to change that now; but from here on out, I'll be doing so in the knowledge that it's a house rule. 

Dataweaver:

Counterpoint: "Each ceremony is learned as a separate Merit." p.150.  This reads to me that ceremonies are Merits.  Also, page 64: "New Sin-Eater Merits include Ceremonies, Haunt, and Momento."  And note that the Experience Point Costs table doesn't list Ceremonies.  As such, the "three experience per dot" rule for not having an instructor should be viewed as an extension of the usual rules for Merits, rather than as a replacement for them.  That is, it's an increase in cost over and above what would normally be charged.  That is, pay 50% more if you don't have an instructor. 

IMHO, this business about Merit costs is the nWoD's version of the oWoD's "new dots" vs. "current dots" debate that reared its head during the publication of the Revised lines.  Personally, I'm going to continue to charge 10 xp for a 5-dot ceremony rather than the 30 xp that the writers say I should charge; and I'm only going to charge for intermediate levels of Merits if they would provide benefits on their own (and sometimes not even then, if a higher rating subsumes all of those benefits).  This is how I've been doing it for well over five years, without incident.  I see no reason to change that now; but from here on out, I'll be doing so in the knowledge that it's a house rule. 

Just out of interest, considering there's a lot of freelance writers that frequent these forums - have any of them given their opinion, or the official word on merit costs, or for that matter oWoD's "new dots" vs. "current dots".

Perhaps if someone asks nicely they will.  Maybe the clarification could be put on the website as errata.

Earlier in this very topic, one of the writers of Geist stated that the official word has always been that you must pay for each dot in turn, making the experience cost structure be 2 xp for a one-dot Merit, 6 for a 2-dot Merit, 12 for a three-dot Merit, 20 for a 4-dot Merit, and 30 for a five-dot Merit. 

Dataweaver:

Earlier in this very topic, one of the writers of Geist stated that the official word has always been that you must pay for each dot in turn, making the experience cost structure be 2 xp for a one-dot Merit, 6 for a 2-dot Merit, 12 for a three-dot Merit, 20 for a 4-dot Merit, and 30 for a five-dot Merit. 

Well there we go then, people know the official answer and if they don't like it/doesn't suit their game they can use a different ruling.

Cowboy Hat:

Dataweaver:

Earlier in this very topic, one of the writers of Geist stated that the official word has always been that you must pay for each dot in turn, making the experience cost structure be 2 xp for a one-dot Merit, 6 for a 2-dot Merit, 12 for a three-dot Merit, 20 for a 4-dot Merit, and 30 for a five-dot Merit. 

Well there we go then, people know the official answer and if they don't like it/doesn't suit their game they can use a different ruling.