Player Opinions on a Combine Vampire: The Masquerade and Requiem Settings

Hi all

 

Hope you can help use out with this,

    A group of us are working on an combined Vampire: the Masquerade / Vampire: the Requiem Setting with the intention posting it on the internet once it is completed to help satisfying players of both games,

    So that I would like you to do if you would be so kind is to post any Suggestion you have or tell me what you like about etch game,  rules, bloodlines, back store, or just something you’d like to see included  

 

Thanks     

 

Ps:  This is posted this in OWoD and Requiem Forums, So Just Post in One of the Two, Thanks  

Ps:  Yes we are probably mad for attempting this.     

Interesting, just hope people don't post just to flame, but anyways, here is my two scents:

First of all, try to make it unique, don't just put the Masquerade setting on the new sistem (Tho that wouldn't be a bad idea perse, it would be too close to Masquerade in my opinion to warrant all the work it would need, besides, you can always just play Masquerade in that case)

Tho I do feel most clans should be represented by bloodlines, a few (Such as the Tremere or maybe the Setites) could be better suited as 'mini covenants' (Tho if you want Tremere 'stealing vampirehood' from existing Kindred you could certainly do that, just keep Thaumaturgy balanced)

As far as Bloodlines I'm really interested in seeing how do the Tzimisce fare, personally I think either Ventrue or Gangrel with Protean or Domination respectively and a few cool devotions would sufice instead of making the whole headache of 'making visicitude playable'
 
Make sure to have ghoul families for both the Tzimisce (They usually had plenty Revenant families after all) and the Giovanni, I can't believe an incestous constantly ghoulde and vampiric family wouldn't become such a thing eventually per Requiem rules XD

Also would like to know how would you plan on bringing about the so few a so weird 'Bloodlines' from the Masquerade game, if at all, I mean, the Gargoyles and the Bloodbrothers alone would be weird enough (Tho something like the Moroi and The Carnival respectively would rock), but there were also many Gangrel 'spinoffs' and a bunch of other crazy things I wouldn't like seeing anywhere near Requiem.

Tho I do admit that something like the Harbringers of the Skull would be cool, a former Clan comming to pull you down from below the grave you ditched them in, tho trying to keep everything special should be important here (Probably choose either the Cappadocian or the Salubri, two 'extint' clans back from the 'dead' is way too many in my personal opinion), and more open ended, I love the way Julii and Ventrue work by instance, and the fact they are almost indishtinguishablemakes it even cooler when you think of one Clan trying to off the other XD

So far those are all the suggestions I have, but I will probably come up with more soon enough, I love to see this tried out if probably just out of nostalgia, tho I would enjoy playing such a thing or just helping develop it

Very much indeed

I did this a while back.  Here's what I came up with, though I never did have a chance to play with it:

I worked only with Requiem disciplines to, for the most part, create Masquerade clans (see below).

For the Setting's history, I borrowed from Requiem for Rome, but changed it.

The idea is that the Camarilla never fell with Rome; it has survived into the modern nights and the Sabbat has risen as it's Nemesis. Sabbat: The Lance became more extreme and tore away from the Camarilla soon after the fall of the Roman Empire. The Sabbat is a blend of the Lance and Belial's Brood. The LS sometimes still goes by it's ancient Requiem moniker, but Sabbat refers to their ideology which is more or less synonymous with them as a covenant, which is they are monsters damned by God and should behave as such. Many fanatically believe that there is a special (better) place in Hell reserved for them should they fulfill this role. The term Belial's Brood refers to the devil believed to rule their region of Hell; they will all eventually be Belial's Brood and so they use the name about themselves to indicate their willingness to die for their beliefs. Others play lip service to these ideals, while enjoying the freedom of being a monster. There are two orders of Sabbat Priests (status 3 and above). They may learn Theban Sorcery, or Choronzon (Belial's Brood). Every Sabbat Pack is meant to have one of each kind of Priest. The Legio Mortuum ironically can be found in both the Camarilla and the Sabbat, though they often go by different names The Camarilla maintains its wings, changed slightly from ancient times: The Invictus was never created (or it might be another name for the Camarilla). Within the Camarilla there remain the Senex, often called the Inner Circle by the other wings, the Legio Mortuum ironically can be found in both the Camarilla and the Sabbat, though they often go by different names, and the Cultists. Members of the Senex may purchase the Haven, Mentor, Resources, and Retainer Merits at half the normal experience cost (rounding up). This cost break does not apply to purchases of these Merits during character creation. Members of the Legio Mortuus may purchase Resources, Fighting Style, Mentor and Retainer Merits at half the normal experience cost (rounding up). This cost break does not apply to the purchases of these Merits during character creation. The Cult of Augurs has, more or less, absorbed other cults we might otherwise put under the Circle of the Crone. The actual name Circle of the Crone is not even used in most cites, only when there is an actual Crone they venerate. Usually it is called the Cult of Augurs or the Cult of [Insert deity name here]. The Camarilla of most cities has become much more open minded and accepting of non-Veneficia practicing blood sorcerers. Generally they are just called Cultists. Members of the Cult of Augurs may learn the rituals of Veneficia. Other Cultists may learn Cruac. The Paragrine Collegia are almost never known by that name in modern days; if anything, they are called PC Members or Citizens but they often still organize in much the same way they did in ancient times. Citizens may purchase the Allies, Contacts, Haven and Herd Merits at half the normal experience cost (rounding up). This cost break does not apply to purchases of these Merits during character creation. The Ordo Dracul is officially an apolitical covenant but remains a secret society within the other covenants and otherwise remains, more or less, the same. The Carthian Movement fills the role of the Anarchs. They will as often share a city with the Camarilla as fight over it. Though generally, they'll ally with each other to fight the Sabbat.

Were I to run such a game, I'd listen to my players, but this is how I would initially plan to work the clans for a Sabbat Requiem game:

Clan / Disciplines (Sorceries@7x) / Weakness

Assimite / Celerity, Obfuscate, Suikast (Mérges Sorcery) / Cannot drink the blood of Vampires*

Brujah / Celerity, Majesty, Vigor / -2 to anger frenzy checks

Gangrel / Animalism, Protean, Resilience / as per Requiem

Toreador / Auspex, Celerity, Majesty / Gets lost in awe at beauty and fine works art

Ventrue / Animalism, Dominate, Resilience / As per Requiem

Nosferatu / Nightmare, Obfuscate, Vigor / As per Requiem

Malkavian / Auspex, Dementation, Obfuscate / As per Requiem

Tremere / Auspex, Dominate, Cruac / Embrace leaves them with one step Viculum

Tzimisce / Animalism, Tenure, Bloodworking / Must rest in their home soil

Old Clan T' / Animalism, Dominate, (Linagem), Tenure / Must rest in their home soil (I prefer this one)
    or          / Animalism, Auspex, Dominate, (Lithopedia) / Must rest in their home soil

Giovanni / Dominate, Cattiveria, Vigor / No Kiss effect, feeding causes extra damage to victim
Getsumei powers may be learned as additional rituals of Cattiveria.

Ravnos / Animalism, Resilience, Sunnikuse / As per Daeva
  or         Celerity, Majesty, Sunnikuse / As per Daeva

Lasombra / Dominate, Obtenibration, Vigor / No reflection

Follower of Set / Majesty, Obfuscate, Amphivena (Cruac) / operate under penalties under light & extra damage from sunlight

Unless otherwise mentioned, core rules are as per Requiem.

First change: *Diablerie does not automatically cost a point of Humanity, it just requires a roll.

Sabbat of Status 3+ May choose Theban Sorcery or Choronzon to begin learning.
Sabbat may learn the First Tier of Coil of Banes Conquer the Red Fear

For combat, I'd use Mailanka's WoD Combat Hack: Dramatic Combat (Google it if you don't know what it is, or see my summery here.)

Notes:

Without Chimistry, Ravnos remain problematic.

I've chosen Requiem versions of Ventrue and Nosferatu (though maybe they should all be ugly...), though I'd be open to using other options.

With the Tzimisce and the Old Clan, I've made some changes others may or may not agree with, but I think they are thematic and appropriate.


I'd like to hear any comments you might have.

My only question is, how much of each game are you wanting to use, both setting and rule wise? Example: do you plan to use Generation or Blood Potency?

Or, are you thinking about just using the VtM setting with the VtR rules?

Just wondering..


Anyway, looking at this thread, good stuff Ich.

Hi

Thanks, for the replies you have given me something to think about, and nice work ich,

Ok, is not planed as a simple port of VtM on to VtR it is planed to be a complete overhaul, based primarily of Masquerade but incorporating, Bloodlines, Rules, Clans and possibly factions and plot from Requiem

Basically, we will maintain some elements of the Masquerade history such as Caine and the Antideluvians and the city if Enoch along with events like the fall of Carthage, Anarch Revolt and the Convention of Thorns. But I plan to give much of the back story a Re-Wright in particular to sort out some of the mess coursed by 3 editions of VtM, and incorporate some elements from requiem.

            As to the question of Generation or Blood Potency, we plan to use a system of Generation and Vampiric Age; I may also use a rating dependant on, Clan, Lineage and or Bloodline similar to staring torment in Demon: the Fallen. The combination of there will determine the vampire’s capabilities in a similar way to calculating willpower and humanity in Masquerade.              

We have started by overhauling the clans I will be using most if not all of the clans from VtM as well as possibly the Mekhet however some clans like the Tremere, Assimites, and Follower of Set may be demoted to bloodlines.

We also intend to make use of the may bloodlines in Requiem, as well as removing some of the more irrelevant bloodlines from Masquerade like the Old Clan Tzimisce and True Brujah, the True Brujah in particular need to be removed as I am disposing Troile from the Brujah clan history and leaving Ilyes the Brujah clan Antideluvian

      I have decided to make all clans except, Tremere and Ventrue a collection of similar Lineages and or Bloodlines. (like Can Ravnos Jati, or the Assimite Casts)

            As a result all these Lineages and Bloodlines that makeup a clans has 2 clan and 1 bloodline disciplines, combined with a Bloodline and or Clan Weakness, and maybe a clan / bloodline advantage but have not decided on that yet

            For instance:

                        Clan Toreador has 4 Lineages and 1 Bloodline all have the Toreador Clan weakness as per Masquerade, all have Auspex and Presence / Majesty depending on game version, and the Lineages / Bloodline are as fallows.

• Ishtar Lineage / Celerity / Unknown /  (Primary Toreador Lineage)
• Astarte Lineage / Celerity / Unknown / (Secondary Toreador Lineage)
• Beshter Lineage / Fortitude-Resilience / Fads (Must have that, Don’t want it now)   
• Iontius Lineage / Dominate / -1 to Hunger  Frenzy checks
• Melpominee Bloodline / Discordance (Custom Melpominee Re-Work) / Weakness as DoC / (Re-Work of Daughters of Cacophony)

Primary and Secondary Lineage will only have different weaknesses

 

Still having trouble with factions tho, we want to maintain Camarilla, Sabbat and Anarchs but I would like add a forth faction to mix things up a bit and to replace the iconnu as they are a bit irrelevant with in Masquerade

 

Hope that helps explain things a bit

Phalin:

As to the question of Generation or Blood Potency, we plan to use a system of Generation and Vampiric Age; I may also use a rating dependant on, Clan, Lineage and or Bloodline similar to staring torment in Demon: the Fallen. The combination of there will determine the vampire’s capabilities in a similar way to calculating willpower and humanity in Masquerade.      

That could be interesting then. I can't wait to see what you cook up.

I like the idea of CLANS being a collection of Bloodlines and Lineages.. I mean.. that is what a CLAN is, like a large extended family..

I too am interested to see what you end up with.. especially in converting some f the old MAsqurade clans and bloodlines to Requiem rules..

Mr Gone:

My only question is, how much of each game are you wanting to use, both setting and rule wise? Example: do you plan to use Generation or Blood Potency?

In my version, I plan(ned) to use Requiem mechanics for everything.

Mr Gone:

Or, are you thinking about just using the VtM setting with the VtR rules?

Yes.  Though, I with so many clans, I didn't see including bloodlines and the history takes from both...

Mr Gone:

Anyway, looking at this thread, good stuff Ich.

Thanks! :)

Your plan seems like 'the other way to do it' compared to mine.  It does sound interesting and is certainly as valid.

Phalin:

We also intend to make use of the may bloodlines in Requiem, as well as removing some of the more irrelevant bloodlines from Masquerade like the Old Clan Tzimisce...

Funny how what some find essential others irrelevant! 

I have not meshed the two settings as such (ie. meshed setting material from V:tR with V:tM) to create a coherent setting using parameters from both settings.

But I have ported the V:tM setting to V:tR rules. So I have done quite a few hacks around this with V:tM clans and disciplines. I have ported quite a few clans from V:tM to V:tR rules including disciplines. Among them are Assamites (with Serpentis), Gargoyles (with Visceratika) and Giovanni (with Necromancy since I did not think that the Sangiovanni and Cattiviera was a particulary good fit actually). Not everything is done, for example I am still working on Vissicitude and making it balanced and playable but still have somewhat the same feel and functionality.

For the clans I have constructed quite a few new weaknesses in order to fit in better with the V:tR rules and to make them having a real mechanic behind it (the Tremere weakness from V:tM can be very bad if the ST wants to but can be equally bland if the ST does not have the energy to enforce it, it lacks a real game mechanic to be enforced IMO).

I'll gladly share what I have done if there is interest?

C.

Cogitare I would most definetly like to see what have you done with Necromancy, I always liked the Giovanni as a concept (Come on, Mafia plus Incest + Necromancy? What's not to love! xD), also the Gargoyles which have rocked since always...

As far as the weakness thing I agree with you, the Tremere weakness could not be a weakness at all, at least not come out often enough to matter in most of the games I had experienced, while something like the Brujah's weakness came out as often as... well frenzy XD

Ich:

Phalin:

We also intend to make use of the may bloodlines in Requiem, as well as removing some of the more irrelevant bloodlines from Masquerade like the Old Clan Tzimisce...

Funny how what some find essential others irrelevant! 

Indeed, specially considering there is this Ishtar Lineage right there... which wasn't even a bloodline,tho I'm definetly curious now to see what happened to the Tzimisce, since we will most likely see a cool colection of 'lineages' too...

I'll start with saying that I like the idea of having Clans getting a number of lineages and bloodlines. To which I presume that the ST can add new one they've made up themselves.

How is this new setting going to handle Blood Sorcery and Signatur/Special Disciplines? I always thought that VtR handled that better since Blood Sorcery in VtM was always more or less Disciplines with Rituals rather than having a sense of "sorcery" over it, while some of the more show-like Disciplines got thrown among the thrash.

An idea would be to only allow rituals, and perhaps expand the number, so that they really are sorcerers. Not walking flamethrowers. Or at the least kill some of the Paths like Lure of Flame which feels a bit powerful. I understand that some might potentially feel that this makes the sorcery Clans a bit less powerful than they should be. However please bear in mind that in the example of Tremere  they got Auspex to discover problem and avoid it along with Dominate for social situations. While the Giovanni seems more than capable of handeling themselves with Dominate and Potency.

Secondly, are you going to power over every single sorcery like Setite, Assamite, Abyss Mysticism, Koldun, Wanga etc. or keep it more limited to maybe Thaumaturgy, Necromancy and one or two more?

About signatur Disciplines I am wondering if this new setting intends to bring them all into the game? Maybe its just me, but it feels a bit odd that every single Clan except four has a Special Discipline, while many of these Special Disciplines are also more or less reducible into a "cool way of killing people" into which I'd throw Obterneration, Q-whatever that the Assamites have, and Serpentis. Now some of these are cool in concept, for example Obterneration with the "the dark stuff of their souls" and the abyss conection. But perhaps vampire hentai perhaps isn't the best approach to it.

A possible Discipline list could be:
Brujah: same
Gangrel: same
Nosferatu: same
Malkavian: Obfuscate, Auspex, Dominate (never understood what there was in Dementation besides being silly and let the group have a few laughs before it just got annoying and stupied)
Nosferatu: same
Toreador: same
Tremere: same
Ventrue: same
Lasombra: Vigor, Dominate, Obfuscate (yeah know Obteneration is gone, but for a Clan that is supposed to be about manipulation and stuff, I don't see what a tentacle rape can get you that Vigor or Dominate can't)
Tzimisce: same
Assamites: Vigor, Obfuscate, Celerity (never understood why making an entre Discpline that's only for killing better was a reason for it, rather than just giving them the same outfit as the Brujah which to my knowledge works fine when killing stuff)
Followers of Set: Obfuscate, Resilience, Majesty (once again, since Serpentis is only anyhow about killing stuff, just give them a common physical Discipline and things should go pretty good)
Ravnos: same, or replace Chimesty with Majesty or Dominate. I think either can work pretty good.

A few of my thoughts on the matter. Although far form the only ones.

The new Obtenebration seems perfectly fine for me without the tentacles of shadow. Its Mood enhancing and has many of the great powers from before.

Bloodline

            A Couple of you have noted about some of the bloodline you see as essential, and they are all valid, but I will explain the reasons for there removal.

            Old Clan Tzimisce, well they are an integral part of the whole Souleaters entities, and Vicissitude as a disease concept, which as removed from VtM back-story with good reason, we do intend to use a version of the old clan as a lineage for the Tzimisce but not as a separate entity as it is in VtM.  

            True Brujah on the other hand we intend to remove completely this is in part to aid are efforts to make the Brujah clan the primary political opposition to Ventrue, and besides vampires that can play with time always struck my as a bit odd anyway.

            Nagaraja well these guys are gating a massive overhaul, first of all we are giving them back Nihilistics that they lost in later additions, and second they will be a ancient clan, the first clan actually, with a Second generation founder, and they will have the Cappadocians descended from them, they will be partly based on elements taken from Wraith and Mummy.    

                    

Sorcery

            Well the current plan is to have Sorcery split into 2 categories, Ritualistic Sorcery (Aka D&D Mages, Learning specific rituals) and Innate Sorcery (aka Tremere, Thaumaturgy).

            Innate Sorcery works just like a discipline; you learn levels in it and gain abilities, still working on the Sup-paths tho,  

            Ritualistic Sorcery works by training a normal Mental Skill witch gives you the understanding to perform lvl 1-5 rituals; the rituals themselves unlike Innate Sorcery cannot be performed without considerable preparation, but will be obviously far more potent, however some rituals will only be able to be performed by individuals with an Innate Sorcery as well as the rituals, but the vast majority may be performed bay anyone who knows the ritual.           

            Innate Sorcery: Thaumaturgy, Necromancy

            Ritualistic Sorcery, Assamites Sorcery

To be hones we may reduce Thaumaturgy into a much simpler form, and make many of its capabilities relatively simple rituals,   

           

Disciplines

            Well we have for the most part maintained the disciplines of the clans including Quietus; however we are considering a number of changes, including the fallowing

• Combing Animalism and Protean or Protean and Serpentis into a single discipline
• We plan to remove ether Auspex or Animalism from clan Tzimisce probably Auspex and replace it with something currently looking at Obfuscate, Fortitude / Resilience or Dominate.
• Combing Thanatosis and Vicissitude for some interesting possibilities.

 

Storyline

            Well its still very much up in the air at this point but hear is the basic of the story we have so far. Its mostly a re work of the old Masquerade back-story, as we generally consider it to be better, however we have included a version of Camarilla in Rome ironically under the name Invictus.(Role reversal)     

• The Carthian order forms in ancient Greece entirely within clan Brujah, eventually moving to North Africa and forming Carthage.
• The Invictus is forms in Rome by the Ventrue, Lasombra, Malkavian and Cappadocians.
• Three Punic Wars later, Carthage is Destroyed and the Carthians are exiled to the north of Europe.
• However around 300 Ad Hannibal (The Great, Carthaginian General) is awakened from Torpa, and immediately sets about driving a wedge between the clans of the Invictus, convincing the Lasombra the Ventrue are planning to make a strike against them, which is actually true.
• The Lasombra Leave the Invictus and declare a clan war against the Ventrue.
• An as yet unnamed clan enters an underground Temple and mausoleum, and enters Torpa to be awakened in the future.     
• In this time Hannibal has taken on the Role of king of the Visigoths, under the name Alaric.
• The Invictus begins to collapse the Cappadocians are in the middle of a civil war with there children a group that will eventually be known as the Giovanni, and the Ventrue are suffering at the hands of the Lasombra.   
• The Killing Blow came in 410 after a devastating war against the Invictus, Rome and particularly clan Ventrue, Hannibal and his Brujah and Visigoth allies Sack the city of Rome in vengeance for Carthage.
• The Invictus as an entity never officially disbands but stops being an affective faction within 50 years.
• The Ventrue and Lasombra finally agree to a treaty in 900 AD despite affective hostilities ending almost 200 years earlier.
• This is just in time for the start First Anarch Revolt that Resulted from various clan wars being waged across Europe, the Revolt was largely crushed by internal policing of the clans own ranks weeding out the dissidents.
• However the Revolt Combined with the Clan Wars resulted in increased mortal knowledge of the vampire race, and thus began the Inquisition.
• The Second Anarch Revolt combined with the decimation of the Inquisition, resulted in clan Toreadors Rafael de Corazon sending envoys to may of the clans suggesting an alliance and reformation of the Invictus.
• The Invictus officially reformed with only the Ventrue, Toreador, Nosferatu, and Salubri clans; however the Salubri wear still involved in a conflict with a group of vampires calling themselves House Tremere. And the Malkavian refused to have any further involvement with the organization
• The Invictus without a real fighting force behind it suffered for almost 100 years until finally it once again collapsed with the destruction of the Salubri clan and there Antediluvian.
• Once again Rafael de Corazon attempted with the help of Hardestadt of clan Ventrue to reform the Invictus realizing they needed as strong fighting arm for the faction both clans at the suggestion of clan Nosferatu made offers to Clans Assimite, Brujah and Gangrel, only the Brujah agreed after significant negotiations, one of there main stipulations was that the Name Invictus be replaced. And so in 1347 the Camarilla was formed.

 

Gurkhal:

A possible Discipline list could be:
Brujah: same
Gangrel: same
Nosferatu: same
Malkavian: Obfuscate, Auspex, Dominate (never understood what there was in Dementation besides being silly and let the group have a few laughs before it just got annoying and stupied)
Nosferatu: same
Toreador: same
Tremere: same
Ventrue: same
Lasombra: Vigor, Dominate, Obfuscate (yeah know Obteneration is gone, but for a Clan that is supposed to be about manipulation and stuff, I don't see what a tentacle rape can get you that Vigor or Dominate can't)
Tzimisce: same
Assamites: Vigor, Obfuscate, Celerity (never understood why making an entre Discpline that's only for killing better was a reason for it, rather than just giving them the same outfit as the Brujah which to my knowledge works fine when killing stuff)
Followers of Set: Obfuscate, Resilience, Majesty (once again, since Serpentis is only anyhow about killing stuff, just give them a common physical Discipline and things should go pretty good)
Ravnos: same, or replace Chimesty with Majesty or Dominate. I think either can work pretty good.

A few of my thoughts on the matter. Although far form the only ones.

While the new Obtenebration isn't quite as over-the-top as old (and therefore easily kept intact, personal taste really), I agree, if going with more common Disciplines, Obfuscate is a -great- setup of the Lasombra. Even in Dark Ages, they were often the puppet masters behind the thrones, rather than the ones sitting upon it like the Ventrue. Great suggestion, I always felt it'd suit them more for their night to night activities. Leave Obtenebration for the Abyssal mystics and occultists (a Bloodline), or simply have them dig into a Theban or Cruac equivalent out of clan.

Ditto with the Assamites. I could be misremembering (it was a whiiiiiiiile back) but at least one author speaking on the clan mentioned they'd be better suited with Potence than the mess that Quietus alway was. Being smacked with Vigor/Potence, with the defense (and potential offence) of Celerity, nevermind hit and run tactics of Obfuscate, -ow-. With the advent of the castes, it's still pretty workable, switching Quietus with that.

Ravnos are a toughy. Honestly, I'd port over Nightmare for them. Seriously, look at each power individually, even as specific as it is, I think it's a better fit using Requiem ports that aren't too out there.

Nightmare would be one I'd consider porting back into the Nosferatu as well, if ones playing them up as being something more than info mongering snitches (ugh). I'd leave Animalism for the Bestials etc. in a Bloodline manner or similar. That said, Obfuscate for the Nos easily converts to Obtenebration. Think the silent film. Consider that it helps see in the dark (and where do many Nos eke out unlives?) and conceal themselves or others in swatches of darkness, let alone move all sneaky like with near wraithly ease at higher levels. May not be a "generic" but the new one fits the Nos even more. Nightmare certainly would fit, but I'll diverge and say, give them the nWoD version of Obten. Keep Vigor, and toss in Animalism or Nightmare as desired.

Setites: Well, supposedly you got warriors and priests, much like the Assamites. Resilience works, but so does Vigor, for a Majesty, Obfuscate Vigor whammy. I think it makes a subtle counterpoint to the Lasombra as well, though potentially alluding to their shared origins. Give the priests access (though not neccessarily as an in-clan) to Cruac using some of the Sethite Rituals of the Mekhet book and your doing pretty damn good.

Just some musings on my end. Mind you, I'd toss the Tremere completly to the curb in such a retrofit but hey, that's just me.