A Changeling Feminist?

and I'm only posting ideas which would serve as helpful information for other people

*bursts into uncontrollable laughter*

Fabio Sooner:

and I'm only posting ideas which would serve as helpful information for other people

*bursts into uncontrollable laughter*

Okay I  think may have stated this wrongly...

I think I was actually trying to say that I'm only posting questions about the WoD which would serve as helpful  reference/information for other people.

In this instance though, you haven't really succeeded.  The line of questioning doesn't really seem to be very thought provoking, as it really doesn't address something fundamental to the WOD or the CtL in specific.

The other problem is, you've sort of conflated three different liberal philosophies into one - feminism, socialism, and anarchism. You sort of have to pick one and stick with it for a philosophical discussion like this.

In a vague attempt to be constructive, though, I will look at each of those three seperately:

1) Feminism: Cold, probably. The Gentry don't have any anti-woman bias as a group. Individual Gentry might, since they all view the world through a crazy-lens, but overall you're lucky if the Gentry can even conceive of gender as something that isn't chosen for fun. A feminist character might have some friction with old-fashioned members of the Great Courts, given that changeling leaders can reach a hundred years old without too much trouble and thus remember the original suffragettes, but that's about it.

2) Socialism: Warmer. The Gentry do not work together, ever, and their ultimate selfishness could be something that a socialist character would see as the worst of human nature. Presumably, by setting up societies where people don't try to hedge their agreements and act totally selfishly, you could be trying to bring a Court structure to the entire planet, hiding it from the True Fae. This works well with the Great Courts, who at least in theory share power equally, give tasks to each according to his abilities, and even trade their mantles of leadership based on magical might and freehold support. (In practice, of course, there's a lot of politics there, but socialism's always had to deal with that problem).

3) Anarchism: Absolutely. The Gentry have a very top-down rule approach, and a changeling could feel that the Courts are only mimicking that for the Earth, being ultimately not useful. At that point, you've got to figure out what makes a better system, though - if the Courts actually do stop the Fae, is it worth bringing them down just to prove a point?

I still have no idea what this question is about. I've reread it so many times and I still don't get it.

Could you rephrase this?

What exactly are you looking to find out?

SMILE:

I still have no idea what this question is about. I've reread it so many times and I still don't get it.

Could you rephrase this?

What exactly are you looking to find out?

Let me clarify myself.

What I was basically trying to say that is how do Changelings view domestic abuse/slavery/hierarchical systems/etc in the real world which leads them to theorize (by Changeling scholars and of course Changeling feminists) that those things may be responsible for the creation of the Gentry or some might view vice versa that they may be a Arcadian influence in our world.

Blood Lore:

What I was basically trying to say that is how do Changelings view domestic abuse/slavery/hierarchical systems/etc in the real world... which leads them to theorize (by Changeling scholars and of course Changeling feminists) that those things may be responsible for the creation of the Gentry or some might view vice versa that they may be a Arcadian influence in our world.

  Doubtful conclusion.   Abuse from the Gentry is subtly different from real world abuse.   The reason that the Gentry abuse the Lost is because they lack the necessary empathy and context to understand that they're hurting their charges, plus they suffer from arcane compulsions from their Titles and any pledges they make.   Human abusers often act out as attempts to control the abusee.  

While I suppose that you could argue that some theorist will come up with the idea that the human desire for control reflects the control a Fae has over his realm, but it seems like a stretch to me.    True Fae and humans simply think to differently for there to be a strong comparison between the two kinds of abuse.

And I really don't see the point of emphasizing changeling femisists.    You seem to be implying that changeling men aren't abused as heavily as females - sexually or otherwise.   And that's simply incorrect- the Others, as a whole, don't differentiate between genders like that.  Do you honestly think that there aren't fae with stables of men that they sodomize routinely?  Alien probes, anyone?

Blood Lore:

What I was basically trying to say that is how do Changelings view domestic abuse/slavery/hierarchical systems/etc in the real world which leads them to theorize (by Changeling scholars and of course Changeling feminists) that those things may be responsible for the creation of the Gentry or some might view vice versa that they may be a Arcadian influence in our world.

The counter-question is, "What would make a changeling sufficiently optimistic that they would believe that humanity would be much better people if it were not for the influence of supernatural outsiders 'responsible' for making humans do bad things to one another?" Such a viewpoint really assumes that humans must be implicitly less capable of evil on their own. I would be interested in seeing an explanation for why a changeling would feel that way. Perhaps abject denial, an attempt to flee into naivete? It seems much less the sort of thing that would be posited by a "scholar" and more the belief of a frightened child.

Blood Lore, there's something to consider as you posit questions for people who actually play the games. I realize you don't play them yourself, which means you probably have much less experience with, well, the interconnected nature of an RPG setting. Every question comes with a lot of context. For a "feminist changeling," for instance, every player already considers the context of what that person was like before their abduction, as well as during and after. Taking all of these things into account, it becomes less likely that a changeling will fixate on one particular idea like "the Gentry must be responsible for human males deciding to treat human females like crap."

Roleplaying is an interesting process. Because you do it in a group, you're exposed to a wider variety of opinions, viewpoints and questions than you would be alone with a book. Some questions that seem provocative on your own might not survive a round of contact with other gamers. I wouldn't be too discouraged by this; it happens all the time, just usually in the casual conversation stage of a game rather than via online discussion.

Blood Lore:

that those things may be responsible for the creation of the Gentry or some might view vice versa that they may be a Arcadian influence in our world.

More likely abuse and ill will created the Gentry (or at least their current form) than vice-versa. Gentry can't invent anything new, they're doomed to mimic, so they picked up bad habits from us. The WoD has always stressed the fact that you don't need supernatural influence to have humans do atrocious stuff. Gentry didn't invent oppression and slavery-- but they sure have enjoyed it.

Also, note that there's a lot of female changelings that prefer to use "traditional" roles.   Changelings do gain more power from fulfilling archetypes and roles, so a changeling activist trying to change the status quo might actually weaken the freehold.

So, in a twisted way, being progressive might be a bad thing.

Blunt Vorpal:

Also, note that there's a lot of female changelings that prefer to use "traditional" roles.   Changelings do gain more power from fulfilling archetypes and roles, so a changeling activist trying to change the status quo might actually weaken the freehold.

So, in a twisted way, being progressive might be a bad thing.

I think this is because that Freeholds run under a feudal system that only benefits one person or certain group of people which is oppressive towards anyone below them so of course to them that "being progressive is bad thing" because it basically it threatens their self-preservation and their status to be higher than anyone else...I guess Freeholds are no better than the Gentry after all....(Or maybe I speculate that this is a backlash post...)

I guess I  would have prefer my changeling character to be courtless or setting up their own societies/factions based on progressive ideals (communism/anarchism/socialism/etc) similar  to The Carthian Movement/Free Council/etc if this was the case if your saying was true....

Also after seeing the responses here, I regret creating this thread although the "How do Changelings view real world domestic violence/abuse/slavery/etc" was a good question I thought up at the time but I just happen to poorly execute it...I'm sorry.

No, it works this way because the Wyrd literally grants more power to those that fit into those roles.   It has absolutely nothing to do with the court structures.    A female changeling that fit into the Stepmother role can do so even if she's the only changeling in a hundred mile radius, and still gain the increased benefits.

The very nature of the Wyrd rewards stereotypical roles.   There's an incentive for following them.  Ergo, breaking from these roles have the potential to remove a weapon that can be used to defend against the Others.   Large changes also hurt Clarity, leading into madness.   You're not taking these important factors into consideration.

Blunt Vorpal:

No, it works this way because the Wyrd literally grants more power to those that fit into those roles.   It has absolutely nothing to do with the court structures.    A female changeling that fit into the Stepmother role can do so even if she's the only changeling in a hundred mile radius, and still gain the increased benefits.

The very nature of the Wyrd rewards stereotypical roles.   There's an incentive for following them.  Ergo, breaking from these roles have the potential to remove a weapon that can be used to defend against the Others.   Large changes also hurt Clarity, leading into madness.   You're not taking these important factors into consideration.

Is there's any alternative rules for those who don't want to confined into stereotypes and allowing 3-dimensional flexible characters? Like for example removing the wyrd and present it as a falsehood fashioned by Changeling society much like pseudoscience is?

If not then I'm sorry to say this but I have to conclude that C:tL is actually a sexist game which is a major turn off for me and there goes my interest of the only NWoD gameline out of the window....I guess I should stick to the OWoD if this is the case...

Blood Lore:

If not then I'm sorry to say this but I have to conclude that C:tL is actually a sexist game which is a major turn off for me and there goes my interest of the only NWoD gameline out of the window....I guess I should stick to the OWoD if this is the case...

ieattime20:

If you want flexibility in nWoD, be a mortal. That's the point.

Thats a bit restrictive...

Although I 've been speculating that mortals are originally intended to be the actual protagonists/PCs while the supernaturals were never meant to be playable characters (I guess when your character becomes a supernatural that means you automatically lose the game and you have to create a new character) and their books were written as a sarcastic satire and their true purpose were actually written to be antagonist books for mortals.

I guess I'm finding myself disliking the NWoD more and more....(I also find the idea of getting power via discrimination and stereotyping is absurd and humiliating at the same time)

So yes I'm still accusing C:tL to be sexist/discriminating.....