A Changeling Feminist?

Blood Lore:

So yes I'm still accusing C:tL to be sexist/discriminating.....

Really? Because I think it's sexist to say that traditional roles are required to be sexist.

What about a Fairy Godmother is forced to be a sexist role? You have a powerful woman with potent magic who decides who prospers and who falters based on her own judgments.

What about a wicked stepmother is forced to be sexist? Is it sexist just because you dislike your husband's children, and all women are required to be loving and caring? Or is it sexist to say that women are required to be good people all the time, because they're just so sweet-natured?

Is Prince Charming a sexist role, automatically? What happens if the Prince is a gay man who rescues extremely camp gay men who fall into the traditional category of princesses? What if Charming can only succeed because of the women in his life leading him, or even fighting his battles for him?


Assuming that traditional roles are sexist by nature is a very dangerous trap to fall into, because it can quickly blind you to the flexibility that people can put into them. A strong-willed princess

Blood Lore:

So yes I'm still accusing C:tL to be sexist/discriminating.....

What you're saying is: "Because WW didn't specifically create this supernatural line with me in mind, and because they didn't market it specifically at me, I'm not going to put in the little effort that it would take for me to change the game to something that I would enjoy."

In that case, this thread is just about done, I think.

On the other hand, instead of saying, "Oops, I guess I can't play it now!" *wink, wink*, you could just ask us to help you create a different framework for the game. Other players, anyway. I have no interest in indulging you anymore.

Blood Lore:

I think this is because that Freeholds run under a feudal system

Blood Lore:

If not then I'm sorry to say this but I have to conclude that C:tL is actually a sexist game which is a major turn off for me and there goes my interest of the only NWoD gameline out of the window....I guess I should stick to the OWoD if this is the case...

Blood Lore:

Is there's any alternative rules for those who don't want to confined into stereotypes and allowing 3-dimensional flexible characters? Like for example removing the wyrd and present it as a falsehood fashioned by Changeling society much like pseudoscience is?

You missed my point, I fear.   I said that you get some bonuses, not that the game tries to force you into these roles.    Being a feminist may very well be the best for characters in the long run, preventing them from becoming like the Gentry themselves.   However, there are definite downsides to the issue that you're not seeing- being gender blind takes away some power, and power is addictive.   Power helps hold the Others at bay.   Power makes you more like the Gentry.  

Changelings are often trapped in an eternal cycle, the abused becoming the abusers.  Breaking the cycle when you're rewarded for staying inside it is hard.   And that's the point- its supposed to be a struggle.   Feminists and other social reformations would likely be in the minority.

Also, note that feminists can also take things to extremes (which the Lost are well known for doing), and that's just as bad as any thing else.  

Friv Yeti:

The Gentry don't have any anti-woman bias as a group. Individual Gentry might, since they all view the world through a crazy-lens, but overall you're lucky if the Gentry can even conceive of gender as something that isn't chosen for fun.

True, the Fae are far too mutable for fixed sex or gender to make much sense. For instance, during their long-standing feud the Seven-Sinned Marchessa might vanquish the Lord of the Frozen Orchard and claim that particular Title as a trophy, becoming both the Marchessa and the Lord; but some time afterwards yet another rival could then in fair battle carry away the Title of the Marchessa, leaving behind only the Lord... who might choose not to manifest as a man at all but rather as an actual snow-covered orchard.

If Blood Lore isn't absolutely offended yet, he will be after reading this:

Fergurg:

As much as people like to argue otherwise, gender is more than "innies and outies"; male and female minds think differently, react differently, and even have different physical capabilities. For example, women in general have higher pain tolerance, while men generally have greater strength potential.

I think most of this has to do of what society (Capitalism especially) has socially conditioned them to be eversince childbirth although it doesn't always work on everyone since people work on a individual level and I don't think that gender is a hive mind...

I think the post you made was simply a backlash I presume...

Blood Lore:

I think most of this has to do of what society (Capitalism especially) has socially conditioned them to be eversince childbirth....

hahahahaha....

dean:

Blood Lore:

I think most of this has to do of what society (Capitalism especially) has socially conditioned them to be eversince childbirth....

hahahahaha....

Well I could have said that "even if it's true then it's most likely...."

I think I'm at the point that I'm done with this thread since it's almost getting to a off-topic flamewar (or maybe this entire thread was a flamewar and that is getting worse....).

May I make an observation?

This is a roleplaying game.  It is a framework, meant to allow players and storytellers to create stories that are enjoyable to tell and play out.  And, as WW has said on so many occasions it's really part of my brain now (paraphrased), "If you don't like something, change it."  Blood Lore, if the concept of the game causes you this much trouble, then perhaps you might want to consider changing it up a bit.  But here's my take on things:

The Others do not understand humanity.  They are best described as solipsistic, narcissistic, and amoral in relation to human standards.  The most important being in their universe is them.  Whatever bad traits that humanity possesses, they are by no means as extreme as the Others.  And to blame the Others for centuries of social framework - when they probably don't even understand said framework - is not necessarily a logical step.  An eight year old doesn't consider the social structure of a beehive when they throw a rock at it, just to see what happens.

( Side note.  Capitalism is a recent invention.  Women have had trouble from the established Western European societal structures for a bit longer than that.  Suffrage, amazingly enough, isn't strictly a women's movement. )

As for fitting into stories, if that bothers you so much, then perhaps there's a chance to explore the theme of creating new stories.  Something like that could become a much larger, much more epic, storytelling experience than a game centered around Court politics.  There are always possibilities for a good, enjoyable game experience.

Just pick your story.

Fergurg:

As much as people like to argue otherwise, gender is more than "innies and outies"; male and female minds think differently, react differently, and even have different physical capabilities. For example, women in general have higher pain tolerance, while men generally have greater strength potential.

glamourweaver:

Fergurg:

As much as people like to argue otherwise, gender is more than "innies and outies"; male and female minds think differently, react differently, and even have different physical capabilities. For example, women in general have higher pain tolerance, while men generally have greater strength potential.

There are tendencies effected by sex, yes.  But these pale in comparison to the variances between people as individuals.

To suggest that a drive for people to be able to determine their own destinies and be judged as individuals rather than as part of the biological group they born into "weakens people as a collective" is actually quite sexist Fergurg.

Except that Fergurg is scientifically correct.   The presence of large amounts estrogen or testosterone in the body actually changes the way that the brain operates.   For instance, the female brain can link emotions and facts far more readily than the masculine brain.   Its why men have the stereotypical trouble of remembering their anniversaries.   There are recorded differences between the male and female bodies and minds.   Its not sexist when you're simply observing facts and tendecies.