A Changeling Feminist?

Blunt Vorpal:

Except that Fergurg is scientifically correct.   The presence of large amounts estrogen or testosterone in the body actually changes the way that the brain operates.

ieattime20:

This is a specious argument in a lot of ways. For instance, the idea that even if this is true men and women should be treated differently.

Neither myself nor Fergurg said anything about treating women differently.   Fergurg was playing Devil's Advocate, pointing out a different angle to the OP's assumptions, and I simply pointed out that there are a number of biological differences between male and female.   Nature and nurture both contribute greatly to the person you are- and sex is part of your nature.   That's all.   Ignoring gender when it comes to medicine or psychology is silly.  

ieattime20:

I'm not calling you a sexist, but please, don't jump to conclusions. For everyone's sake, including your own. It does not speak well of you.

  I can say the exact same thing back to you.   I did not jump to any conclusions, but rather simply paraphrased a study that I read for Women's Studies course I took in college.   I pointed out scientific facts that I got from said study.*   You were the one that read conclusions that were not in there- especially when I was just playing Devil's Advocate.

*Unfortunately, I no longer have the book, so I can't give you who did the study.

Blunt Vorpal:

glamourweaver:

Fergurg:

As much as people like to argue otherwise, gender is more than "innies and outies"; male and female minds think differently, react differently, and even have different physical capabilities. For example, women in general have higher pain tolerance, while men generally have greater strength potential.

There are tendencies effected by sex, yes.  But these pale in comparison to the variances between people as individuals.

To suggest that a drive for people to be able to determine their own destinies and be judged as individuals rather than as part of the biological group they born into "weakens people as a collective" is actually quite sexist Fergurg.

Except that Fergurg is scientifically correct.   The presence of large amounts estrogen or testosterone in the body actually changes the way that the brain operates.   For instance, the female brain can link emotions and facts far more readily than the masculine brain.   Its why men have the stereotypical trouble of remembering their anniversaries.   There are recorded differences between the male and female bodies and minds.   Its not sexist when you're simply observing facts and tendecies.

Now your now using biological determinism to reduce women into mechanical robots which is the part your now getting sexist....It's nothing more pseudoscience. It's also the same crap as Eugenics that the British Empire/US/Other European Imperialist Empires/Nazis used to jusify that their "superior" than the other "races" which lead to them to commit atrocities like genocide for instance.

Blood Lore:

Now your now using biological determinism to reduce women into mechanical robots which is the part your now getting sexist

No... I'm using biology to point out that women and men think differently.   That's it.   I never once said that someone was superior or inferior.   Just different.   Stop reading things that aren't there.  

If you instantly assume that someone is presenting an opposing opinion is wrong and/or prejudice, then I suggest that you stop, take a good step back, and look at things from another angle.

Blunt Vorpal:

Except that Fergurg is scientifically correct.   The presence of large amounts estrogen or testosterone in the body actually changes the way that the brain operates.   For instance, the female brain can link emotions and facts far more readily than the masculine brain.

ieattime20:

This is the part where I don't believe you and you are making a sexist argument. Estrogen and testosterone may change minor aspects of the brain, but they certainly don't affect the brain at the level of complex, frontal-lobe cognition that is the sort of thing you imply with the next sentence. At minimum, I have never seen any evidence, hard substantial evidence, to indicate that it does. All of the complex emotional/logical difference we see are at the culturally-trained level of cognition and really have nothing to do with gender besides that our CULTURE defines differences. It's certainly not a biological gender-defined difference, or, again, I have never heard of any evidence supporting it.

Yep I agree with you ieattime20, it's basically sexism disguised as "science" (pseudoscience that is) perpetrated by our Capitalist society as a excuse to patronize/marginalize/categorize and finally divide us (since you have to remember that Capitalism is a system specifically designed for a certain group of people which currently happen to be a bunch of wealthy old white males...hence our system is patriarchal and the pseudosciences presented by Blunt Vorpal and Fergurg happen to be just a obvious product of our society)...not much different what we used to teach during the 19th century about "race differences" (Eugenics for example) which further lead into atrocities (i.e. Native American genocide, Slavery, The Holocaust, etc) and I feel that society still has a long way to go until we can finally recognize ourselves as equal human beings (hence this where socialism/anarchism/communism comes in....).

Blood Lore:

Yep I agree with you ieattime20, it's basically sexism disguised as "science" (pseudoscience that is) perpetrated by our Capitalist society as a excuse to patronize/marginalize/categorize and finally divide us (since you have to remember that Capitalism is a system specifically designed for a certain group of people which currently happen to be a bunch of wealthy old white males

ieattime20:

This is the part where I don't believe you and you are making a sexist argument.

The problem is, you're basically making baseless accusations based on your own ignorance.  Sticking your head in the sand and saying, "I don't see any evidence of this!" doesn't show there is no evidence (or even better contrary evidence).

There are, by biology standards, significant physical differences between male and female brains.  There aren't the full studies on the direct impact of this, but the differences observed fall in-line with starting to explain many of the mental and neurological differences observed between men and women.

Your biological gender is not just what kind of sexual organs you have.  Nature has funneled us over the years into having significant differences.  Not because one is better than the other, but because the complimenting nature of it is more beneficial than having everyone do things the same way.  Genders evolved specifically because it is better to have cooperating specialists than cooperating generalists for a socially oriented species.

ieattime20:

Estrogen and testosterone may change minor aspects of the brain, but they certainly don't affect the brain at the level of complex, frontal-lobe cognition that is the sort of thing you imply with the next sentence.

It's mostly testosterone.  And the effects are mostly natal.  The amount of testosterone levels in your brain as a fetus has a major impact on how your brain develops, which then impacts your mental aptitudes.

Of course, this is biology.  This isn't about hard lines, but general patterns.  A female fetus with high testosterone levels or a male fetus with low testosterone happen frequently and create overlap between brain 'types.'

ieattime20:

All of the complex emotional/logical difference we see are at the culturally-trained level of cognition and really have nothing to do with gender besides that our CULTURE defines differences.

Where's your evidence?

Zeev:

The problem is, you're basically making baseless accusations based on your own ignorance.  Sticking your head in the sand and saying, "I don't see any evidence of this!" doesn't show there is no evidence (or even better contrary evidence).

ieattime20:

I'm granting the possibility that I might be wrong and challenging those who make an unestablished claim to back it up with evidence.

Doing so while you call the other person's argument sexist is inherently contradictory.

ieattime20:

Indeed, there are a lot of people in the LGBT community who would support this, just not in the way you presume.

Ah, the pathetic rhetoric of it all.

ieattime20:

This is a claim I would like to see supported.

Read... some neurology journals?  I'm not sure what journals you have access to.  But there is research regularly being published on the physical differences between male and female brain function.  After a cursory look at my own access to EBSCOhost, I've found a multitude of abstracts on the subject, all of which indicate the researchers believe that the significant differences between gendered brains is a matter of record and fact.

ieattime20:

The fact that gender roles vary across cultures, as well as gender stereotypes.

That's not evidence.  That is simply conflating biological gender with cultural gender (which are not the same thing).  Cultural norms and mores might mask easy observation of biological gender differences, but they don't offer and casual explanation.  Nothing you've said demonstrates that significant cognitive gender differences are culturally based.

All you've managed to show is that most humans aren't good at intuiting what is and isn't biological gender differences when presented with cultural ones in the mix.  Your example doesn't even proof the point, because it doesn't bother to eliminate the variable that ethnicity will play on gender biology.

ieattime20:

but it would be kind of you to merely look it up yourself.

Right, coming from the guy that's going on and on about other people looking stuff up for him.

ieattime20:

Blood Lore:

Yep I agree with you ieattime20, it's basically sexism disguised as "science" (pseudoscience that is) perpetrated by our Capitalist society as a excuse to patronize/marginalize/categorize and finally divide us (since you have to remember that Capitalism is a system specifically designed for a certain group of people which currently happen to be a bunch of wealthy old white males

First bold: This has nothing to do with Capitalism dear, as plenty of socialist societies have gender issues. And in fact, matriarchal societies have their own human-rights issues. Sexism isn't a conspiracy, it's the very slow death of very old traditions that were originally put in place when the REAL biological differences between women and men were far more important (like when being able to kill something was the only way to ensure your family's survival, so of course those who were less capable of killing were taken into a servitor role). But whose significance nowadays, when there are no real physical constraints that would benefit those with denser muscle mass, is fading away. Culture is something that is very slow moving. This isn't a conspiracy. It wasn't designed.

Second bold: Have you ever heard of anarcho-syndicalism, for one? Commune capitalism? Capitalism is not some system designed to ONLY benefit rich people, it's an explanatory model of how capital moves around (i.e. the things that people value) that also happens to be totally accurate to most things. Capitalism is barely a capital C, and it's certainly not a euphemism for Satan. Honestly you sound like a religious zealot when you talk about it like it's some sort of demon, running around doing shit.

What I'm arguing here that Capitalism is a hierarchical based system based on inequality which can be matriarchal or patriarchal which is currently (and for a long time) patriarchal because it happens to be run by wealthy white males (those who own mega corporations, banks, etc). This isn't a conspiracy that's how our system works which only benefits these certain groups of people not the rest of us (I guess you can research class struggle to see where I'm coming from).  

Wow, I'm gone for a bit and when I come back there's a thread about both Feminism AND Anarchism. To which I can only say...OUT OF THE POOL KIDS! Forum trolls always swim in those waters!

Zeev, I'm trying to keep this civil, but it is getting late and you are getting rather hostile.

Blood Lore:

What I'm arguing here that Capitalism is a hierarchical based system based on inequality

ieattime20:

Zeev, I'm trying to keep this civil, but it is getting late and you are getting rather hostile.

I find you approach to civility distasteful and deceitful.

ieattime20:

My statement was that creating a gender difference that can certainly be used in a negative way, IF that difference is also certainly not a biological mandate, is inherently sexist.

The problem is the idea that 'gender differences' are being created simply by observing and reporting biology.  That cultural factors have used science improperly doesn't change anything or justify your flagrant hypocrisy.

ieattime20:

I have never outright disagreed that male and female brains are different.

Then you're contradicting yourself.  If there are clear biological differences between two sets of brains, neurology tells use this impacts brain function.  How we deal with emotions is a function of the brain.  If female brains do this different than male brains (and they do) then there is nothing sexist about pointing it out.  The sexism is in claiming comparative social value between the different ways of handling things in the brain.

ieattime20:

What I disagree with is extrapolating from this into discussing mental aptitude and capability, as well as preference, which I believe is entirely too extreme to be explained by the (significant in different ways) differences observed, which can be used to define prejudices in the same way that eugenics was, of which this kind of thing, at least in actualization if not intent, is certainly a family of. Even if you are absolutely right this matter must be treaded with care to avoid creating a gender-progressive backlash and set our society back 50 years.

Except mental aptitude is proven to be affected by brain structure.  The male brain tendency towards more neurons and larger mass, versus the female brain tendency towards a more developed corpus callosum (as examples), impacts these things.  Form and function are closely related in biology.

And fear mongering about 'backlashes' doesn't do anyone anything.  The issue is not 'treading lightly.'  The issue completely separate from what science has found, is training people to be critical thinkers and ethical minded to avoid abusing science.  That's something that goes beyond this specific issue.

ieattime20:

I consider that evidence that the person's claim is wrong. Do you disagree?

What I see in you is incredibly poor critical thought compared to your verbosity.  You provide non-contradictory statements in a false dichotomy in poor rhetoric tactics to attempt to elicit 'agreement' from me without having to do the actual work of showing anything.

You haven't provided any valuable counter evidence to the biological impact of gender on mental function.  All you're doing is hiding behind the subtlety of those effects in a poor attempt to undermine their significance.

You aren't proving your point, you're just dancing around verbally.

ieattime20:

This is some of the direct hostility I'm talking about.

Which you brought fully upon yourself, you intellectual asshole.  Don't bitch about other people needing to provide evidence if you don't.  You admitted it:

ieattime20:

I asked you to look it up because I'm lazy

Don't expect courtesy and your mock 'civility as a guise for pompous arrogance' when you're clearly being lazy.  And it was clear without you saying it.  Offering to be better after the fact doesn't change what you've already done.