Dragon: The Embers

UPDATE: Mr Gone is hosting our Character Sheet!  Check it out.

EDIT:

If you are part of a mechanic discussion that has not yet been implemented, you'll have to read the posts relevant to that discussion.  If you'd like to suggest a new feature for Dragon: The Embers, just make a new post and that will start a new discussion.  Features that have been implemented concretely can all be found on the Wiki, so if you are looking for verification you can find it at the link in this post, there is no need to read the entire thread.

Discussions that are currently open can be found in the second post of this thread, here

Welcome to round two!

By popular demand (And a little late, I'm sorry), Shock and I have rounded up all (or most) of the content from the original thread for repost (To streamline content production without hours of reading or confusion).


Dragon the Embers on the White Wolf Wiki

My personal goal with this project is a PDF book on par with Evo Shandor's "Demon" book (Besides page texture, passable as a White Wolf product)


For skeptics, here's a few facts about the Dragon template:
Dragons are locomotives.  They advance to True Form at a rate equal to 'Furnace' aspects per turn.  Likewise, their supernatural talents (Philosophies) take at least 5 turns to reach full potency.  In this sense, they are much slower than the other templates available for players, but they make up for it in punch.

A Dragon does not assume Aspects type by type, it is a dot-by-dot basis.  For example, a Dragon with Furnace 5 and 15 dots of Aspects (Natural Weaponry 5, Scales 2, Inferno 3, Wings 2, and Fire Skin 3) might only assume 2 dots of Natural Weaponry in one turn, despite the fact that she possesses 5 dots in that Aspect.  Perhaps she wants to assume one point of Inferno and two points of scales, or maybe she intends to put Fire Skin on full this turn.  She doesn't jump to full power instantly.  In fact, it usually takes quite a while.

Dragons are haunted by the dual nature of their practical immortality.  On one side, their bodies can die and die again, and will recover over the course of months/years/decades.  But on the other, their Heart (The core of their being) is completely vulnerable to attack, and its death is the last death for the Dragon.



Credits

If I've missed somebody, I'm terribly sorry.  Please let me know and I'll edit you in.


Concept

Shock
Gepetto887

Code

Shock
Veritomancer2

Flavor

Gepetto887
Shock
Looney Tunes
Xenoheart
Veritomancer2

Subtitle

Khalvin8
SunlessNick
Bruce Leenomorph

Antagonists

Gepetto887
Shock
Looney Tunes
Xenoheart
DeadlyMoose (Hydra)
Veritomancer2 (Devourers)

Aspects

Gepetto887
Shock
Looney Tunes
Xenoheart
Veritomancer2
CJC
D_S
Lostkith
Zombiewulf2

Method Mechanics

Gepetto887

Philosophy Mechanics

Gepetto887
Shock
Veritomancer2
CJC

Sects

Shock

Red Diamond Mechanics

Xenoheart
Gepetto887

Merits

Veritomancer2
CJC


Death and Resurrection Mechanics

Lostkith
Shock
CJC


Dragon Society

Shock


Wiki

Shock
CJC

Character Sheet
CJC
Mr Gone

This post is about our current goals and current discussions.  It has links to all posts related to a particular discussion.

Human form and True form healing rules:

Lostkith opened the discussion (5th Paragraph)
Gepetto replied (5th Paragraph)
CJC replied (3rd Paragraph)

The Matter of the Red Diamond:

Cire opened the Discussion (Entire Post)
Shock replied (3rd Paragraph)
Lostkith replied (1st Paragraph)
Gepetto replied (1st - 3rd Paragraph)
Cire replied (Entire Post)
CJC replied (2nd Paragraph)
Shock replied (2nd and 3rd Paragraph)
Gepetto replied (Entire Post)
Shock replied (1st Paragraph)

Sects:

Irrelevant of who brought up sects (I'm not going to fish the thread today),
Shock replied with Content
CJC asked about multiple-membership
Shock answered (1st Paragraph)
Gepetto also answered (1st Paragraph)
CJC questioned sect-aiming (2nd Paragraph)
Shock replied (1st Paragraph)
Lostkith replied (3rd Paragraph)
Gepetto replied (4th Paragraph)


Sect submission still greatly welcomed.  To make a sect, invent a general ideal and three sequential powers.

Dragon Society:

Shock opened the discussion (1st Paragraph)
CJC replied fluff, not necessary to read.
Shock clarified the topic (1st Paragraph)
Lostkith replied (2nd Paragraph)
Shock replied (1st Paragraph)

Topic awaiting further discussion.

True Form and Aspect Tweaking--CLOSED!:

There was some discussion prior to the first link in this section.  The topic didn't start getting punch until we settled on the function of True form, though, so we're going to skip a few of the messages.

CJC opened the discussion, Shock replied, Lostkith replied, Shock replied
CJC suggested a mechanic for True Form (2nd Paragraph)
Shock solved the issue with Inferno (1st Paragraph)
Lostkith presented other arguments towards Shock's Solution (2nd Paragraph)
CJC agreed to the solution
Lostkith made a thorough analysis of the Common Aspects (Entire Post)
Zombiewulf2 suggested another feature for the Additional Legs aspect (Entire Post)
CJC replied (Entire Post)
Shock replied (Entire Post)
CJC updated the wiki (Entire Post)
Lostkith presented an issue with the Aspects system (2nd Paragraph)
Shock agreed (Entire Post)
CJC agreed as well.
The conversation got dropped while CJC was updating the Aspects
CJC proposed a new system for assuming Aspects (Paragraph 3)
Gepetto provided clarity on Aspect balance (Entire Post)
Lostkith replied (2nd and 4th Paragraph)
Gepetto replied (6th and 7th Paragraph)
CJC replied (1st Paragraph, 3rd Paragraph cross-topic)
Gepetto replied (Entire Post)


Aspect updates are complete, and discussion is closed until combat tests.

The cost of Furnace--CLOSED!:

This was a brief discussion between c34r and Shock.  It was resolved before I could initiate it into the discussions list, so I'm not going to post links to this conversation.

Shock talked about the cost of furnace in relation to Red Pearl harvesting loss.  c34r asked about this cost, as well as thematic possibilities.  Shock was uncertain, but the matter of the experience cost settled at (New Dots x 9).

Personally, bonus experience for the purpose of furnace stoking should be a Storyteller recommendation in Chapter 4.

A Dragon's Resurrection--CLOSED!:

Shock opened the discussion (Entire Post)
CJC replied (Last Paragraph)
Shock replied (1st Paragraph)
Lostkith replied (1st and 2nd  Paragraphs)
Shock replied (1st and 2nd Paragraphs)
CJC  replied fluff
Shock replied (Entire Post)
Lostkith replied (Paragraph 2)
Shock replied (Paragraph 2)
Shock closed the Discussion (Paragraph 1)

This topic has closed

Dragon Death and the Shadow -- CLOSED!:

CJC opened the discussion (2nd Paragraph)
Shock replied (3rd Paragraph)
CJC replied (4th Paragraph)
Shock replied (1st Paragraph)
Lostkith replied (1st Paragraph)
CJC replied (1st Paragraph)
Shock replied (1st Paragraph)
CJC replied (1st Paragraph, discussion has veered towards Hydra mechanics)
Shock replied (1st Paragraph)
CJC replied (All Paragraphs.  This one's quite the wall of text)
Shock replied (Both Paragraphs)
Lostkith replied (1st and 3rd Paragraph)
CJC replied (All Paragraphs)
Lostkith replied (Hydra heads paragraphs 1, 3, and 4; Dragon Ghost paragraph 2)
CJC replied (Paragraphs 1 and 2)
Lostkith closed the discussion (Last Sentence)

Topic has closed and been placed on the wiki.

As of 10-13-2009:

We need Sects!  To build a sect, construct an ideology and three sequential powers.

We need to work on the content for the introduction, sects for chapter 2, other special mechanics for chapter 3, and storytelling hints for chapter 4 (Needs the most work).

We also have to work on our Appendices.  The first will be an Aspect workshop, and Shock would like to do San Fransisco for the second.  The second involves extensive research of relevant geographical and social data.  Lostkith has mentioned the Twin Cities, and Gepetto would like to do a non-american city.


Not quite there yet, but we need black and white border art, filler art, and inter-chapter full page art.  I've got plans for the cover, but anybody can submit if they want.  We will also need someone skilled in page design and layout to assemble the PDF (We don't want to use page textures or color pictures, to keep printing cost low)
Anybody wanting to write inter-chapter story blips should feel free, as well.

Any and all participation is greatly appreciated.

first off, thanks CJC for doing this.

also here is the link for the original thread. (in case any one wants to look at it.)

now on the the rest of the stuff:

as for aspects, Gepetto originally wanted nearly all of them to be physical. we got a little carried away and came away with more social/mental aspects than we have physical.

we need to polish some, overhaul others, and maybe drop some (or leave them up for the player to take).

here's a suggestion: we have a limited number of social/mental "slots" a dragon can take and the rest has to be physical. that sound ok?

also, since we are on the subject, i suggest the Dragon have a innate ability to boost the physical attributes by 1 when turning into his True Form. this gives Dragons more bite and ups the "hurry up and kill the bastard before he kills us!" attitude of those who want to kill the Dragon.

as for the intro, we need to come up with the back story. we have the theme (Divine Right), we have a collection of Moods (the main one is Baby Steps Toward Extinction), but we to create a back story that the players and storytellers can get lost in.

i don't really know how extended supernatural powers would work for Dragon. technically, the Philosophies are extended actions (which ones builds on the other for a massive effect). i'll think on it.

we have the Heart mechanics along with Dragon healing (they heal 1 lethal per 2 Breath). im guessing we need to expand on healing, how diseases and exhaustion works, how resurrection works, and lastly, how does a Dragon collect Breath (which he gains by eating either everything (Geppeto's idea) or meat (my idea).

storytelling is basically when we make our case of what Dragon is, what setting it is, and why it should belong in World of Darkness (along with crossover issues that will pop up).

lastly, im still trying to brainstorm Dragon Society. for some reason, i have hit a mental block. i have come up with a Dynasty type of idea where either a position of power is given to another or it is taken outright. (need to do some research in how it was like to live in a kingdom or in one of the Chinese Dynasties)

haven't worked out all the details since my main inspiration for this is still in the mail (Jo Walton's Tooth and Claw) but im sure i'll get working on it soon enough.

all in all, i have high hopes, once we get this done, we can get a playtest started and see how it well it works.

Shock:

we need to polish some, overhaul others, and maybe drop some (or leave them up for the player to take).

Maybe Appendix One could be an "Aspect" workshop, and Appendix Two could be San Fransisco.

Shock:

i don't really know how extended supernatural powers would work for Dragon. technically, the Philosophies are extended actions (which ones builds on the other for a massive effect). i'll think on it.

Oh... Sorry, I meant Sects.  At first I was worried that the Philosophies would not cover enough potency to fill the second chapter, but if we throw in Sects right away it'll work out just fine.  And Aspects picks up the slack on the other end.

Speaking of Philosophies, they're all done (By which I mean I finished the last of the SotFE Dramatic Failure effects) save the flavor text that'll go with it when we start filing this stuff into the PDF.  But that of course waits until mechanics are complete.



Had another thought on Dragons in the Shadow.

According to Gepetto, Dragons are greatly disadvantaged in the Shadow, though he didn't really elaborate.  Shock suggested that they would be about as oblivious as mortals, but I didn't think that was extreme enough (I came up with a mechanic that prevented Dragons from assuming Ephemeral form, but it was rejected).

So here's my new thought.  Dragons usually go to the shadow only when their body is destroyed; it is a home for their consciousness while they undergo repair.  While in the shadow, however, the dragon is surrounded by the souls of her heart's prior owners (As each modern dragon becomes what she is by devouring a heart, it's a hand-me-down).  For each dot of Furnace the dragon possesses, she is pestered by one additional predecessor who may gripe about unfair circumstances, demand a rematch, or outright attack her.
While in the Shadow, a Dragon may not assume aspects.
While in the Shadow, a Dragon may not initiate philosophies.
While in the Shadow, a Dragon is guarenteed to have a bad time.  So stay away from the shadow.



I've also come up with a few physical traits that we can attach to some existing aspects, though I haven't really picked particular targets:

Elongated Neck:  The dragon's neck extends by 50%
Sclera Color: The whites of the Dragon's eyes assume a different color, always lighter than the iris but varying from bright red to violet.
Iris Color: The Dragon's iris becomes deep crimson.
Pupil Shape: The Dragon's pupil slits like that of a reptile.
Eye Film: The Dragon no longer blinks, but has a protective membrane over the eyes.  This can be... unnerving.
Horns: This was sort of covered in Natural Weaponry, but I thought I'd bring it up again.
Joint Spikes: The Dragon's joints all come to a sharp point.  When in total true form, these points are bone.

Didn't really check through the aspects before this, so sorry if some are repeats.



(Ouch, only two posts in and we're at a "1" rating?  Did I offend somebody?)

Though I and my group like dragons, and your's does seem good. Others find dragons way to out of place in nWOD or OWOD. I think it's the whole "only supernatural" thing. But I have checked out your book and like it. So good job guys.

This sounds rather interesting I would like a lil explaining on the background of them like the race.

CJC:

Shock:

we need to polish some, overhaul others, and maybe drop some (or leave them up for the player to take).

Maybe Appendix One could be an "Aspect" workshop, and Appendix Two could be San Fransisco.

agreed.

CJC:

Shock:

i don't really know how extended supernatural powers would work for Dragon. technically, the Philosophies are extended actions (which ones builds on the other for a massive effect). i'll think on it.

Oh... Sorry, I meant Sects.  At first I was worried that the Philosophies would not cover enough potency to fill the second chapter, but if we throw in Sects right away it'll work out just fine.  And Aspects picks up the slack on the other end.

Speaking of Philosophies, they're all done (By which I mean I finished the last of the SotFE Dramatic Failure effects) save the flavor text that'll go with it when we start filing this stuff into the PDF.  But that of course waits until mechanics are complete.

well, as i have pictured, the Sects offer mini Philosophies (the highest one is akin to a level 3 dot power in the regular Philosophy), they are like a mix of Vampire's Bloodlines (you gain abilities) and Mage's Legacy (you take on a culture's aspect of what they think a dragon is). 

as for Philosophies, we just need to tweak the mechanics a bit so we know how much Breath is required per power.

CJC:

Had another thought on Dragons in the Shadow.

According to Gepetto, Dragons are greatly disadvantaged in the Shadow, though he didn't really elaborate.  Shock suggested that they would be about as oblivious as mortals, but I didn't think that was extreme enough (I came up with a mechanic that prevented Dragons from assuming Ephemeral form, but it was rejected).

So here's my new thought.  Dragons usually go to the shadow only when their body is destroyed; it is a home for their consciousness while they undergo repair.  While in the shadow, however, the dragon is surrounded by the souls of her heart's prior owners (As each modern dragon becomes what she is by devouring a heart, it's a hand-me-down).  For each dot of Furnace the dragon possesses, she is pestered by one additional predecessor who may gripe about unfair circumstances, demand a rematch, or outright attack her.
While in the Shadow, a Dragon may not assume aspects.
While in the Shadow, a Dragon may not initiate philosophies.
While in the Shadow, a Dragon is guarenteed to have a bad time.  So stay away from the shadow.

going to the Shadow when one dies just doesn't click well with me (why would they, they are not part spirit or anything like that). i am tempted to say that they are sent to the Underworld where it more appropriate for the former owners of the heart to harass, ignore, or on the rare chance, help the Dragon (Inheritors have to come from somewhere) but that would cross over too much with Sin-Eaters for my tastes.

as for the Shadow, i would say that Dragon can assume Aspects and philosophies but it can't gain Breath from eating anything and spirits courts (and werewolves) would see a Dragon as a Spirit Magath and try to kill the Dragon, and lastly, a Dragon doesn't resurrect in the Shadow. a Dragon's Heart remains the the maternal (or if it is in the Shadow, moves into the material when the Dragon dies) but the Dragon himself does not resurrect.

still a bad time.

CJC:

 I've also come up with a few physical traits that we can attach to some existing aspects, though I haven't really picked particular targets:

Elongated Neck:  The dragon's neck extends by 50%
Sclera Color: The whites of the Dragon's eyes assume a different color, always lighter than the iris but varying from bright red to violet.
Iris Color: The Dragon's iris becomes deep crimson.
Pupil Shape: The Dragon's pupil slits like that of a reptile.
Eye Film: The Dragon no longer blinks, but has a protective membrane over the eyes.  This can be... unnerving.
Horns: This was sort of covered in Natural Weaponry, but I thought I'd bring it up again.
Joint Spikes: The Dragon's joints all come to a sharp point.  When in total true form, these points are bone.

Didn't really check through the aspects before this, so sorry if some are repeats.

most of those look cosmetic rather than gameplay wise.

i'll comment more depth on each on tomarrow.

CJC:

(Ouch, only two posts in and we're at a "1" rating?  Did I offend somebody?)

there are mainly two reasons for that.

the first is that this thread has been going on since june/july nonstop and people are tired of seeing on the board.

the second is that some people are naturally opposed to the idea of Dragons being in WoD . and by being son, are quick to hit the rating button regardless of what it's contents are.

we just need to keep working on it, then we will be done with this project and playing the game :)




 

  

 

Ideas for aspects (my excuses if some are repeats of previous posts):
Air Sac: Dragon can fill himself with air. It's obvious when in use (being big and bloated) but you become unsinkable!
Back Sail (or spikes perhaps): The dragon has a "sail" standing on his spine. Perhaps bonus to soak, swim bonus or handy when in extreme environments (use it to cool down/heat up) .
Dislocating Jaw: The dragon can unhinge his lower jaw and swallow a creature whole (perhaps with a size restriction, max half of it's own size, rounded down?). The swallowing takes some time.
Eye Cones: The eyes of the dragon are mounted on moveable cones (so he has a 360° vision), quite noticeable also.
Fins/webbed feet: boost to swimming speed, penalty to walking
Grasping Hands: The dragon has human manual dexterity with his "hands"
Hollow Boned: Bonus to dexterity, but easily broken (stamina penalty?)
Long Teeth: extra bite damage
Terrible Claws: extra claw damage
Upright walking: walk like a human, in dragon form

For elongated neck: bonus to spot checks?
Possible uses of natural weaponry: claws, bite, horns (perhaps the damage can be boosted by other aspects)

Will-O-Wisp:

Though I and my group like dragons, and your's does seem good. Others find dragons way to out of place in nWOD or OWOD. I think it's the whole "only supernatural" thing. But I have checked out your book and like it. So good job guys.

Well we've been trying to make them more supernatural and less, well... natural.  I think the biggest step in that direction was the Heart-Devouring process (Dragons aren't born anymore, the only way to make a Dragon is to kill another Dragon).
We're also distancing ourselves from the "fantasy" dragon, so everything is about fire and heat (No electricity, ice, sand, etc.  Poison came up, but it's more of a putresence associated with Tricksters).

doctor kevorkian:

This sounds rather interesting I would like a lil explaining on the background of them like the race.

You mean Dominion (Social background)?  Or the Dragon's physiology (Physical background)?

Here's the Social background as far as I read it:
Dominion was a period in the history of creation where great leaders of men (Dragons disguised in human form, men as shorthand for humankind) ruled the world completely (Essentially the feudal periods).  At that time, lineage was everything.  Dragons had dragons, mortals had mortals, and that's the way it stayed.  But...  One day a mortal figured out that it only takes heart to be a great leader... so he cut one out.  This man was a sociopath, but he proved a valid point.
The mortals killed their leaders.  The mortals became new leaders.  And the mortals found that such an event was not a singular phenomenon.


As for the Physical background...  there's really no evolutionary source for the dragons as far as I know.  They're not humans that turn into Dragons, it's the other way around, that's for sure.  Other than that, I can't really say

Shock:

most of those look cosmetic rather than gameplay wise.

They're supposed to be cosmetic, we can attach them to aspects that have no physical component (Such as the Crimson Iris color to "Keen Eyed").

Shock:

going to the Shadow when one dies just doesn't click well with me (why would they, they are not part spirit or anything like that). i am tempted to say that they are sent to the Underworld where it more appropriate for the former owners of the heart to harass, ignore, or on the rare chance, help the Dragon (Inheritors have to come from somewhere) but that would cross over too much with Sin-Eaters for my tastes.

Wait...  then where do they go while they're dead?  I mean, I suppose they could exist in Twilight.  I'd still like them to be surrounded by the former heart owners, though (You'll need one more veto before I give up on that).
The Underworld is in the dark depths of the Shadow, and they can't get to Stygia (the Abyss prevents souls from traveling to their true resting place).  So I didn't know where to put a bodiless soul.

And dying the final death in the Shadow?  That actually sounds pretty cool.  What happens to a Dragon's heart if she doesn't resurrect?

D_S:

Ideas for aspects (my excuses if some are repeats of previous posts):
Air Sac: Dragon can fill himself with air. It's obvious when in use (being big and bloated) but you become unsinkable!
Back Sail (or spikes perhaps): The dragon has a "sail" standing on his spine. Perhaps bonus to soak, swim bonus or handy when in extreme environments (use it to cool down/heat up) .
Dislocating Jaw: The dragon can unhinge his lower jaw and swallow a creature whole (perhaps with a size restriction, max half of it's own size, rounded down?). The swallowing takes some time.
Eye Cones: The eyes of the dragon are mounted on moveable cones (so he has a 360° vision), quite noticeable also.
Fins/webbed feet: boost to swimming speed, penalty to walking
Grasping Hands: The dragon has human manual dexterity with his "hands"
Hollow Boned: Bonus to dexterity, but easily broken (stamina penalty?)
Long Teeth: extra bite damage
Terrible Claws: extra claw damage
Upright walking: walk like a human, in dragon form

Check out the Aspects Page on the wiki.  We have mechanics, but most are missing a physical component.  We want a Dragon in true form to look VASTLY different from a Dragon in his nonchalant form, so physical traits are good but you don't have to worry so much about associating them with a particular function.
Some of your traits provide new function, so we can work them in.  Dragons maintain their metacarpal and metatarsal dexterity, though, so they won't need Grasping Hands or Upright Walking.
Thank you for the input!

CJC:

Shock:

most of those look cosmetic rather than gameplay wise.

They're supposed to be cosmetic, we can attach them to aspects that have no physical component (Such as the Crimson Iris color to "Keen Eyed").

Shock:

going to the Shadow when one dies just doesn't click well with me (why would they, they are not part spirit or anything like that). i am tempted to say that they are sent to the Underworld where it more appropriate for the former owners of the heart to harass, ignore, or on the rare chance, help the Dragon (Inheritors have to come from somewhere) but that would cross over too much with Sin-Eaters for my tastes.

Wait...  then where do they go while they're dead?  I mean, I suppose they could exist in Twilight.  I'd still like them to be surrounded by the former heart owners, though (You'll need one more veto before I give up on that).
The Underworld is in the dark depths of the Shadow, and they can't get to Stygia (the Abyss prevents souls from traveling to their true resting place).  So I didn't know where to put a bodiless soul.

And dying the final death in the Shadow?  That actually sounds pretty cool.  What happens to a Dragon's heart if she doesn't resurrect?

well, it's really open to debate wither the Underworld is it's own entity or just a part of the Shadow but that's off topic.

and i do agree that having the former owners of the heart dealing with the Dragon with he dies (sounds very awesome and a lot of storytelling hints can be explored here).

meh, might as well send them to the Underworld when they die. while they are in there, they are still subject to all of the Old Laws that the Sin-Eaters and Ghosts still suffer under. i think there also that a Dragon should make a Code roll when he resurrects, failure means that make on the former owners of the hearts follows him back up the the material (for a number of days equals to the Dragon's furnace). a Dramatic failure means that the ghost uses the Dragon as it's anchor to the material.

as for the Dragon Heart when a Dragon dies in the Shadow, it stays put. open for anyone who finds it. should the Heart be with the Dragon while he goes into the Shadow (or not do the ritual at all), the Heart goes into the Material realm. should the Dragon die in a place where there is no Material counterpart, the Heart would appear in the closest point in the Material to that area in the Shadow.

i'll continue to work on Dragon Society. right now, it's using the Tier system in Hunter and Giest (with a 20 member cap on the highest group).

it does Den-Enclave-Dynasty. i'll try to get to get some more info later tonight.    

alright, i have come up with the following.

Dragon follow a society that is much akin to many small nations next to each other (much how early Renaissance Italy or Ancient China was). each Dragon carves up territory that they rule over (and fight over) and most follow these four laws:

1.The Subjects must not know (if humanity in general finds out about Dragons, the Ouroboroi would never hang on for the Hearts for long and the idea of Dragons ruling over humanity does not sit well with most humans)

2.Unite against the Devourers (if anything could unite Dragons as a whole, it is the thought that one of their own is a Devourer. no matter how powerful a Dragon is, they all fear Heart Eaters)

3. The Right of Vassalage (basiclly, when a Dragon calls on this Law, he is crying uncle. the Dragon still rules his territory but suffers under the rule of another Dragon by supplying a tax or service this is how Enclaves and Dynasties start to form)

4. The Right of Hospitality (Dragon use this right to talk to another Dragon without fear of either attacking each other. tradition states that the Right ends at the end of the day or the visiting party attacks).

Now what Dragons regarded as territory could be anything. people, place, a thing, etc but they make it obvious to other Dragons (and to everyone else) they do own it.

now how do Dragons fight over territory? simple, they pull all their resources and try to make the other one say uncle first. gang fights break out much more often (usually both gangs are part of the Dragon), hostile corporate takeovers, and the killing of the Dragon's friends and loved ones ending up dead in a river are all part of the game that Dragons play.

sometimes, in out of the way areas, the Dragons themselves fight over territory, this sights are rare as more and more of the world is being populated but some still venture out to present day.

that's what i have for the moment.  
 

Shock:

Wait...  then where do they go while they're dead?  I mean, I suppose they could exist in Twilight.  I'd still like them to be surrounded by the former heart owners, though

I would like to throw my 1cent in here in this VERY impressive body of work and vote for the former owners of the heart to be hanging around in Twilight and using the Heart as a very powerful, if not their only, Anchor. This gets them the fun of being pestered by the previous owners, but also puts them at risk for Hauntings every now and again as story hooks. Plus while their waiting for ressurrection they can get into further mischeif with other ghosts and spirits that have anchored themselves there too.
Hope you all take it under consideration, if not... no problemo... it's your baby and i totally respect that.
Looking forward to seeing your final product!
Later.

Lostkith:

the former owners of the heart to be hanging around in Twilight and using the Heart as a very powerful, if not their only, Anchor. This gets them the fun of being pestered by the previous owners, but also puts them at risk for Hauntings every now and again as story hooks.

Very, VERY good idea!  Because the heart is the Dragon's most important possession, it is most likely in her lair.  And having her lair perpetually haunted is just freaking awesome.

That settles it then.  A dragon whose body has been destroyed is sent to the Twilight around her heart while her body undergoes repair.  This makes sense, since minds that are astral projecting (Not traveling to the astral planes, just traveling without the body) exist in twilight and so do the ghosts of the restlessly deceased.  If her body cannot be repaired (Her heart has been consumed, her Red Diamond harvested, or she died in the Shadow), then she is anchored there permanently.

Dragons without bodies aren't TECHNICALLY ghosts (Since they get anchored almost instantly), but they do gain access to two non-manifesting Numina from the World of Darkness Core Rulebook (p. 210-212).  The Numina use Breath instead of Essence, though.  Only dragons who have died the Final death can recover Breath in the twilight, by devouring spiritual matter around them.  This makes the area around the heart usually bleak and barren.  (Dragons do not need to pay 1 Breath per day in twilight unless they have died the final death.  Ephemeral objects are worth roughly three times the caloric value of their mundane counterparts, but dead dragons cannot draw calories from valueables.  If they can't pay, they're flung to the Underworld, which explains why not every single owner of the heart lingers {It'd be really crowded if they did})

Once the body is repaired, the Dragon is ripped away from her heart again and taken immediately to the empty vessel.  An empty Dragon's body can only be occupied by the dragon it belongs to, it instantly rejects all other attempts of possession (That doesn't mean it can't be possessed AFTER she's inside, though).  Of course, when the Dragon is pulled back to her body, the souls of her heart's prior owners have a chance to follow.  The Dragon must roll her Code, and a failure means one of the heart's prior owners has clung to her, and now uses her body as an anchor until she dies again.  (Dramatic failures when rolling Code are impossible save for a Hydra, in which case ALL the prior owners follow along and can manifest heads in True form).

...Or maybe part of using the Dragon as an anchor involves manifesting a head in True form.  That could be really interesting.  I'll let you guys discuss that.



Sorry about the wall of text.  I got excited.
I'll put this on the wiki after we've agreed to all of the specifics.

Shock:

Now what Dragons regarded as territory could be anything. people, place, a thing, etc but they make it obvious to other Dragons (and to everyone else) they do own it.

I really like the idea of considering people as personal territory.  I also like "crying uncle" as an option for the dragon.  It makes the situation a little more playful (Considering everything else against them, they have to have fun somewhere).  I'll set this up with its own page on the wiki when I get a chance.

CJC:

Shock:

Now what Dragons regarded as territory could be anything. people, place, a thing, etc but they make it obvious to other Dragons (and to everyone else) they do own it.

I really like the idea of considering people as personal territory.  I also like "crying uncle" as an option for the dragon.  It makes the situation a little more playful (Considering everything else against them, they have to have fun somewhere).  I'll set this up with its own page on the wiki when I get a chance.

well, i view it like this, Dragons fear losing their territory (as much as a Werewolf losing hers or a Vampire losing access to his haven). it is the ultimate insult for a Dragon to go from ruling over something to nothing at all and it makes another enemy that the other Dragon needs to keep another eye on. the right basically allows the Dragon to continue ruling over their territory but are now a Vassal (A.K.A. bitch) to the Dragon that won.

the end result is superficially akin to the system that Vampire has but differs in many ways.

the first is that (collectively) Dragons don't give a shit on gossip. they are too busy worrying about their own territories to care about what religion a Dragon across the city is. as long as she is not trying to take the Dragon's territory, it matters little to her (rating only a curiosity in her mind).

the second is that Dragons don't have to ask their leaders for anything. a vampire must ask the Prince if it is ok to conquer or to set up shot in a part of a city. Dragons just do it (though wise Dragons tend to watch on to see how much the trouble the other Dragon gets into in that territory before launching their own colonization effort). what they do with their territory is their thing and the only time other Dragons should get involved in that sort of thing is when it become apparent that the Dragon has done something that threatens the rest of the Dragons as a whole.

that's what i got for the moment. 

CJC:

...Or maybe part of using the Dragon as an anchor involves manifesting a head in True form.  That could be really interesting.  I'll let you guys discuss that.

the idea of having the ghosts using on a Hydra's head doesn't click well with me (it does from a horror perceptive but since the heads of the Hyrda are simply it's insanities made manifest, it rubs me the wrong way to say that the heads come from an external source rather from a internal). however, all the Heart's owners anchoring themselves to the Dragons and egging the Dragon on to farther insanity strikes me as very cool.