Dragon: The Embers

I just thought maybe it could be both.  Like this:

James the Code 7 dragon rolled poorly after his resurrection, and the heart's former owner Timmy tagged along.  After assuming 5 turns worth of aspects, Timmy jumps into the anchor (Which is James) and manifests his own head, fighting for control of the body and probably consuming everything in sight (There's rarely enough to eat in the Twilight to gain sufficient breath, especially if Timmy has been using Numina).


Likewise, Karen the Code 0 Hydra has four derangements (Paranoia, Vocalization, Obsessive Compulsion, and Avoidance).  She had a chance roll for code when she resurrected, and she got a dramatic failure, so the Storyteller rolls her furnace and she gets three tagalong owners when she returns to her body.
After assuming 5 turns worth of aspects, Karen sprouts an additional 7 heads, one for each derangement and one for each tagalong.  8 heads on one body arguing for control.  Granted... 5 of them are portions of Karen herself, but three are legitimately foreign (And probably unhappy that Karen is doing such terrible things with their heart).

So she has her original head (Karen's Self or Ego), the head that finds hostility everywhere (Karen's Paranoia), the one that announces every single thought in its (Karen's Vocalization), the head with a tick that likes to take control of her right arm (Karen's Obsessive Compulsion), the head that likes to flee (Karen's Avoidance), a head that wants Karen dead (The heart's previous owner), a head that wants to eat everything in sight (Another previous owner), and a head that's just enjoying a physical body again (Yet another previous owner) for a total of 8 heads fighting over one body.


It'd make multiple heads a condition from multiple sources.  If that still makes you uncomfortable, then I won't include that part in the wiki.

CJC:

I just thought maybe it could be both.  Like this:

James the Code 7 dragon rolled poorly after his resurrection, and the heart's former owner Timmy tagged along.  After assuming 5 turns worth of aspects, Timmy jumps into the anchor (Which is James) and manifests his own head, fighting for control of the body and probably consuming everything in sight (There's rarely enough to eat in the Twilight to gain sufficient breath, especially if Timmy has been using Numina).


Likewise, Karen the Code 0 Hydra has four derangements (Paranoia, Vocalization, Obsessive Compulsion, and Avoidance).  She had a chance roll for code when she resurrected, and she got a dramatic failure, so the Storyteller rolls her furnace and she gets three tagalong owners when she returns to her body.
After assuming 5 turns worth of aspects, Karen sprouts an additional 7 heads, one for each derangement and one for each tagalong.  8 heads on one body arguing for control.  Granted... 5 of them are portions of Karen herself, but three are legitimately foreign (And probably unhappy that Karen is doing such terrible things with their heart).

So she has her original head (Karen's Self or Ego), the head that finds hostility everywhere (Karen's Paranoia), the one that announces every single thought in its (Karen's Vocalization), the head with a tick that likes to take control of her right arm (Karen's Obsessive Compulsion), the head that likes to flee (Karen's Avoidance), a head that wants Karen dead (The heart's previous owner), a head that wants to eat everything in sight (Another previous owner), and a head that's just enjoying a physical body again (Yet another previous owner) for a total of 8 heads fighting over one body.


It'd make multiple heads a condition from multiple sources.  If that still makes you uncomfortable, then I won't include that part in the wiki.

still makes it very iffy for me. namely, how would player put up with dealing with an outside entity messing with them (mechanically)  and when does the effect go away?

Shock:

still makes it very iffy for me. namely, how would player put up with dealing with an outside entity messing with them (mechanically)  and when does the effect go away?

This brings up a very good point.  How do we handle the mechanics of multiple heads in general?

Firstly, the Storyteller and Player need to decide whether the player will be acting out ALL the heads, or just the main head.  Following this, each head would need to choose an action for the round based on the situation (Many heads means a lot of effort into every turn, which is why players can't play full-blown Hydra).  A dice pool is formed like a team activity, in which each head rolls Willpower (Resolve + Composure) with a sponser head being the leader in the activity.  Since each head has a different personality, each has a different dice pool (Inefficient, which is why players would only ever have one or two heads).

For example, Karen with the 8 heads would have eight decisions for a turn's action against a hostile Knight of the Bloody Chalice.  Her Paranoia and Avoidance agree that she should run away, and her Vocalization feels that way too (Though that head announces the plan).  Karen herself wants to kill the Knight, and the hungry previous owner agrees (Lots of tasty flesh to be had there).  Obsessive Compulsive head wants to stab three times, which is close enough to Karen's goal (So it's lumped in there as a contingency).  The hostile previous owner wants to stand still and let the knight kill Karen.  And the body-loving previous owner would like to flee as well (A dead body's no good, after all).

So that's 4 to flee, 3 to kill, and 1 to let kill.  Each team rolls Willpower after selecting a leader.
For flee, that would be Avoidance, who has a willpower of 4.  Paranoia and Vocalization both have willpowers of 3, so they each roll three dice and add their successes as bonuses to Avoidance's roll.  Body-loving previous owner has a willpower of 6, so he probably should have been the leader in that decision, but he adds his successes as bonus dice as well.
With the bonus dice, Avoidance would then roll (Let's say she rolls a total of 12 dice, and gets 6 successes).

For kill, Hungry Previous Owner takes the lead, and Obsessive Compulsive and Karen both support.  Lets say he rolls a total of 8 dice after the bonuses, and gets 4 successes.

Finally, Hostile Previous Owner is the only one in support of the decision to let Karen die, so he rolls his willpower alone.  4 dice later, he has 1 success.


Of the combined contested roll, Run Away is the winner, so that is the action the body takes.  That group of heads remains in control of the body until either there is a necessary change in plans, they disagree, or another group of heads finally outrolls 6 successes (They get to roll again once per turn).




Now, that would take a REALLY long time, so here's a different system if you prefer.  Instead of rolling, the cumulative willpower of each decision group could be compared, and that would determine who controls the body.  The Hydra's main head can always spend a point of willpower to increase her own 'effective' rating by 3.
(Even without the three extra heads, both processes would be time-consuming.  This is the trouble with simulating a mental conflict over body control)



In the case of James and his two heads, unless he and the predecessor are in agreement for action they would contest willpower each turn for control of the body (Since it's only two heads, this is easy enough).




...As for duration?  Well, I sort of thought the spirit would remain anchored to the dragon until she died again, at which point all would be flung back to the Heart as an anchor.  Maybe each time the spirit manifests a head on the dragon, it costs a number of Breath points (We'll say 3.  And I mean the spirit's breath points, not the dragon's), so it doesn't like to do it often.



(Personally, I wouldn't let the hydra roll the contested for heads (Since it'd take an hour just to get through one turn).  I would just compare the cumulative willpowers for each decision)

CJC:

Now, that would take a REALLY long time, so here's a different system if you prefer.  Instead of rolling, the cumulative willpower of each decision group could be compared, and that would determine who controls the body.  The Hydra's main head can always spend a point of willpower to increase her own 'effective' rating by 3.
(Even without the three extra heads, both processes would be time-consuming.  This is the trouble with simulating a mental conflict over body control)

agreed that it would be time consuming but are the possessed heads using normal Ghost willpower during their time with the Dragon or leeching off the Dragon's own willpower pool during the action? also, we might want to consider giving Hydras multiple turns to attack someone (3 heads tearing into a man at once is something that makes Hydras very dangerous.. the more insane they get, the more powerful they become).

CJC:

...As for duration?  Well, I sort of thought the spirit would remain anchored to the dragon until she died again, at which point all would be flung back to the Heart as an anchor.  Maybe each time the spirit manifests a head on the dragon, it costs a number of Breath points (We'll say 3.  And I mean the spirit's breath points, not the dragon's), so it doesn't like to do it often.

hum...a certain number of aspects are needed to be activated before an extra head starts to show up (a ghost manifesting a head needs to be done during a transformation. it can not work on a Dragon that is Human or already in True Form and spend 3 Breath.)

i still don't like the idea of Ghost creating heads but I'll withhold judgment till after the play test.

also, what do you think the society? you have any questions on it?

Towards your conflict of control between heads, you could simplify it even more by really reducing it down to a Contested roll of the characters Resolve+Composure vs. +2 dice per head manifested. You could open that up a bit by making it an Extended Contested roll with the goal being the Characters' Willpower for the insane\ghostly jerks, and the target number for the character could be the total number of dice used by the crazy siders.
Again, just an opinion, i'm glad you liked my last idea and hope that you can find further uses for some of my other ones.

As far as the Territory thing, i love the way that's shaping up. I still havn't gotten the feel of their society yet, but perhaps there could be a polite side to their ways and a not so nice side. Those who adhere to the polite side would introduce themselves and make their intentions known to their fellows, while the impolite jerk-holes would just move right in and grab as much of what they want as fast as they can before the retaliation bomb blows.

Regarding the duration of the invading spirits' stay in the Dragons' body it seems like a huge headache to have the dang thng stuck with you until you cack-off again. Leads me to think that suicide rates would be insanely high after awhile for the unlucky ones. Perhaps you could give the character a chance to Exorcise the spirit via the ritual in the main corebook. Or somthing similar where the mechanics of the Exorcism don't change but instead of a magical duel of wills it's just an internal fight to the ousting of the loser. You can play with the duration by letting them get a roll only once a day... or an hour.... or a week.... or a month.... whatever seems thematically appropriate in your eyes. And they can keep a rolling tally of where they are at in the struggle for the body if you want to dump the Exorcism rules altogether and just aim for a target number.\

That's all i got for now, if i think of anything else or more cool stuff pops up and throw some more fuel on the fire. Keep up the great work guys, this is really starting to spark my inner dragon too!
Later.

Lostkith:

As far as the Territory thing, i love the way that's shaping up. I still havn't gotten the feel of their society yet, but perhaps there could be a polite side to their ways and a not so nice side. Those who adhere to the polite side would introduce themselves and make their intentions known to their fellows, while the impolite jerk-holes would just move right in and grab as much of what they want as fast as they can before the retaliation bomb blows.

well, the four laws are in place namely to keep the draconic nip-picking under control and keep the species as a whole safe  so those that would break the last two of the four laws would find himself alienated and finds that the right to Vassalage and Hospitality no longer applies to him. if a Dragon breaks the first two, he basically becomes public enemy number 1 in dragon society. they will actively seek him out and try to replace him by stealing his heart and giving it to another.

Shock:

agreed that it would be time consuming but are the possessed heads using normal Ghost willpower during their time with the Dragon or leeching off the Dragon's own willpower pool during the action? also, we might want to consider giving Hydras multiple turns to attack someone (3 heads tearing into a man at once is something that makes Hydras very dangerous.. the more insane they get, the more powerful they become).

Derangement heads would probably use the Hydra's own willpower.  A multiple personality derangement would have its own mental and social stats, so it would use its own willpower.  The ghost heads would also be using their own willpowers, not the Hydra's.
And you're right, they would need to sprout the head during the assumption of aspects, they can't just have it mystically appear from nothing.  It's a very specialized form of partial possession.

Multiple attacks? ...Well, how about a short-ranged burst attack for biting, with a bonus equal to the number of heads possessed.  And a long-ranged burst attack for Inferno, with the same bonus for number of heads.  Can you imagine that?  8 heads all launching white-hot balls of fire into a crowd.  Vicious.
Maybe after the third head the dragon gets another spot in the initiative (Equal to just the hydra's initiative mod).


If you're really uncomfortable about the spirit heads thing, we'll make it an optional sidebar for storytellers in Chapter 4.

Lostkith:

Towards your conflict of control between heads, you could simplify it even more by really reducing it down to a Contested roll of the characters Resolve+Composure vs. +2 dice per head manifested. You could open that up a bit by making it an Extended Contested roll with the goal being the Characters' Willpower for the insane\ghostly jerks, and the target number for the character could be the total number of dice used by the crazy siders.
Again, just an opinion, i'm glad you liked my last idea and hope that you can find further uses for some of my other ones.

There's one little problem with that idea, the other heads may not agree with each other.  How about an extended contested roll with NO target number?  Let's say each head gets a single die, and whichever rolls the highest controls the body for the turn.  Ties go to the head with the higher Resolve + Composure.

So for Karen's 8 heads, she'd roll a single die 8 times and keep a record (Not for successes, just for highest number rolled).  {1,7,4,3,10,4,8,10}.  The highest roll was 10 (twice), so those two heads would compare Resolve + Composure (If head 5 had 8 willpower and head 8 had 6 willpower, head 5 would get to take the Hydra's action for the turn).
This is only for control of the body, though.  Individual heads can choose their own actions (Such as bite or inferno blast.  The Inferno aspect applies to all heads simultaneously, but is used up even if only one fires).
I'd say that's simple enough to keep the Hydra from slowing combat TOO much.

Lostkith:

Regarding the duration of the invading spirits' stay in the Dragons' body it seems like a huge headache to have the dang thng stuck with you until you cack-off again. Leads me to think that suicide rates would be insanely high after awhile for the unlucky ones. Perhaps you could give the character a chance to Exorcise the spirit via the ritual in the main corebook. Or somthing similar where the mechanics of the Exorcism don't change but instead of a magical duel of wills it's just an internal fight to the ousting of the loser. You can play with the duration by letting them get a roll only once a day... or an hour.... or a week.... or a month.... whatever seems thematically appropriate in your eyes. And they can keep a rolling tally of where they are at in the struggle for the body if you want to dump the Exorcism rules altogether and just aim for a target number

I was hoping that the dragon would turn to suicide, but considering how long it takes the body to repair (By hearsay, we haven't written mechanics for that yet), you're correct.  I'd say the dragon should have to go to a specialist (Or another dragon who is familiar with the twilight) to have the spirit exorcised.
But... we can also write in another option.  If the spirit runs out of Corpus, it is flung back to the heart as anchor.  If it runs out of Breath, it'll be sent to the underworld and it can no longer haunt its heart's new owner.  And while it is INSIDE the dragon's body (The multiple head thing, but if we make that a sidebar we can assign this to the anchoring itself), it suffers damage to corpus for each point of health the dragon suffers.

CJC:

, but considering how long it takes the body to repair (By hearsay, we haven't written mechanics for that yet)

you want to get started on working on those?

my guess is that resurrection takes a base of 3 months (and every dot that a Dragon has in Furnace subtracts a week's time from that base line).
 

Ok, more topics sweet. Here we go then.

CJC:

Derangement heads would probably use the Hydra's own willpower.  A multiple personality derangement would have its own mental and social stats, so it would use its own willpower.

With this, as i understand such things Multipule Personality Disorder is just the breaking up of the original personality, but it's still the same person. I can understand the use (if not need) for diffrent social and mental stats when needing to game mechanic it. But the person would still be using their same willpower pool because it's still the same person, they just have no idea what they are doing. This could be used to reflect why the person feels drained later on, but have no clue why they feel that way.
Just a thought.

CJC:

If the spirit runs out of Corpus, it is flung back to the heart as anchor.  If it runs out of Breath, it'll be sent to the underworld and it can no longer haunt its heart's new owner.

My only nit pick with this is that we need to nail down what kind of spirit we are dealing with when it comes to the previous owners. If they are a mix of spirit and ghost then you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want with them. The only similar type of thing you could point to in the WoD with that kind of make up are the Geist. Now if the previous owners are just spirit folk, and they go losing all their Corpus they just dematerialize and slowly reform in the Shadow Realm as long as they have a single point of Essence. If they are ghosts, that's a bit diffrent. When they lose all their Corpus they are considered to have "died" again and are shunted off  to the Underworld. My take on this then is that the Hearts my not be as Haunted as we first thought, but the ghosts that do linger around would be the really powerful or clever ones, perhaps both. Plus don't overlook that just because somthing gets pushed off to the Underworld, doesn't mean that it can't come back. And maybe with some friends to boot, he he he.
My vote, to sum up, is that if a ghost of the Heart loses it's Corpus it's driven to the Underworld and the PC can heave a sigh of relief. If the ghost loses all their Willpower or Breath then they just get an unpleasant dumping back at the Heart, and instead of relief, the PC now has a sword of Damaceles hanigng over it's head, never knowing when it could happen all over again.

CJC:

Multiple attacks? ...Well, how about a short-ranged burst attack for biting, with a bonus equal to the number of heads possessed.  And a long-ranged burst attack for Inferno, with the same bonus for number of heads.  Can you imagine that?  8 heads all launching white-hot balls of fire into a crowd.  Vicious.
Maybe after the third head the dragon gets another spot in the initiative (Equal to just the hydra's initiative mod).

Sounds great, i fully support this idea. My only input here... why wait for after the third head to start adding to initiative? Start buffing the Init. Mod just as soon as the second one appears.

CJC:

There's one little problem with that idea, the other heads may not agree with each other.  How about an extended contested roll with NO target number?  Let's say each head gets a single die, and whichever rolls the highest controls the body for the turn.  Ties go to the head with the higher Resolve + Composure.

Hmm. Well, that could work, but your starting to drift from the rules and getting into rolling dice in diffrent ways to achieve ends that could be done in another way. Plus on a personal note, and this is not an attack on you at all, i have had to sit through many games where the ST decided to improvise new dice rolls for things they couldn't decide on, the most enduring of these is the infamous "even or odd" roll. It just annoys me that our ST can't make decesions without consulting a die. Sometimes i get the feeling i'm playing under Two-Face. Meh.
Sorry for the rant.
As to the issue at hand, what i'm trying to say is that the mechanics should be kept to a minimal. One roll should do it. As i see it the Player just has to worry about running their character right? It's the ST that has to decide on what the other heads are doing. The roll is strictly for the Player to know if they have control or if one of these other pushy jerks gets to run with the body for awhile. Now however the ST wants to figure things out, that's up to them. I think that they shold just run with whatever is the most thematic and dramatic myself, but hey that's just me. I guess they could always "even or odd" it if the ST wanted to. Heh.

Well, as always, it's a pleasure to add to this developing game. Hope that helped more than it hindered.
Later.

Lostkith:

Hmm. Well, that could work, but your starting to drift from the rules and getting into rolling dice in diffrent ways to achieve ends that could be done in another way. Plus on a personal note, and this is not an attack on you at all, i have had to sit through many games where the ST decided to improvise new dice rolls for things they couldn't decide on, the most enduring of these is the infamous "even or odd" roll. It just annoys me that our ST can't make decesions without consulting a die. Sometimes i get the feeling i'm playing under Two-Face. Meh.
Sorry for the rant

...Okay, so the problem is the rolling is outside the scope of the Storyteller system, right?  But it's awfully close to Initiative, right?  So how about this:

Each head rolls a "control" initiative with a bonus equal to their Resolve + Composure at the point when they manifest (For most of the heads, this'll be the same number.  It only matters for the ghost heads).  This creates an order of turns that each head controls the body (So each round, a different head has the body).  A head with a higher Control could pass on its turn and then interrupt another head during the cycle.

Actually... we don't have to worry about it, because Hydra are at Code 0 and cannot be used by players.  Since the Storyteller is controlling ALL the heads, we don't really have to provide any mechanics (They can all be winged for dramatic purposes if you really want).  The only time players would have to deal with multiple heads is when a single Dragon ghost manifests one (Using the sidebar rules of Dragon Anchoring), so yeah, that can be a contested roll of Willpowers.
Since players cannot make a chance roll with their Code stat, they can only have one Dragon ghost anchored to them at a time.  2 heads, tops.

Lostkith:

My vote, to sum up, is that if a ghost of the Heart loses it's Corpus it's driven to the Underworld and the PC can heave a sigh of relief. If the ghost loses all their Willpower or Breath then they just get an unpleasant dumping back at the Heart, and instead of relief, the PC now has a sword of Damaceles hanigng over it's head, never knowing when it could happen all over again.

Ah, okay, I understand now.  I've only just recently kicked the habit of the old World of Darkness (Where there was little difference between Spirits and Souls), so sometimes I get confused as to which dead/animistic thing does what.
So we'll make it Corpus depletion send them to the Underworld, and Breath depletion launch them back to the heart.  That'll also make them less wary to fire off Numina when they're anchored to the Dragon's body.

 

Shock:

you want to get started on working on those?

my guess is that resurrection takes a base of 3 months (and every dot that a Dragon has in Furnace subtracts a week's time from that base line).

That's most of what needs to be discussed.  All that's left are modifiers for mutilation (How many months does each act of mutilation add to the resurrection process?  How does distance of body parts affect it?  Do the body parts crawl back to each other, or disintegrate and reform in a safe place?) and we'll have covered everything related to dragon death.

CJC:

Shock:

you want to get started on working on those?

my guess is that resurrection takes a base of 3 months (and every dot that a Dragon has in Furnace subtracts a week's time from that base line).

That's most of what needs to be discussed.  All that's left are modifiers for mutilation (How many months does each act of mutilation add to the resurrection process?  How does distance of body parts affect it?  Do the body parts crawl back to each other, or disintegrate and reform in a safe place?) and we'll have covered everything related to dragon death.

my guess is that the Dragon reverts to it's human form when it dies (or else humanity at large would know about Dragons from the large corpses they leave behind.)

as for mutilation and destruction of the body? i would say  that every minor body part (organs, figures, etc) removed or mutilated adds one more week, every major body part (arm, legs, head, etc) adds 2 weeks, complete destruction of the body adds the total number (the number is calculated 24 hours after death, this is done to prevent just bashing the body again to continually delay the Dragon.) to the time of the Dragon's resurrection.  

distance doesn't really matter, once damage is done to the body within that 24 hours, it hinders the process reguardless. the Dragon grows a new arm (or body part) when they resurrect. also, should the body face compete destruction, the Dragon resurrects either at the Heart's location (if it's storage space can handle to have a space of a man inside it) or close to it (if the space that the Heart is in can't support having a man inside it).

also.. should it come up, the Dragon can eat his own Heart to place it back in his body, however he must under go the Heart ritual or he faces final death when he dies again (the Heart is still inside him though and if one where to take it and eat it, She will become a Dragon.).

 



 

Shock:

(the Heart is still inside him though and if one where to take it and eat it, She will become a Dragon.).

Cool! We can call this Dragon-ablerie.
I kid, i kid.
Sounds really cool. Here's an idea... one i'm kinda stealing from the Promethean's Pandorans, but how about the Dragon's severed body parts turn into inanimate matter. Like a weird stone, or funky plant. Then it can have some strange mystical properties attached to it that could make for some interesting stories for mortals or other Supernatural critters to help vaguley point in the direction of the exsistence of the Dragon's?

Also, who's to say that some of the dragon's revert back to human form? Might be what some people confuse for a dinosaur fossil. Especially if you take the severed body parts turning into strange natural features to the next level and have their old bodies fossilize right away. A big part of them covering up their exsistence might be getting rid of their old bodies. That could lead to real fun in a mortals' game where they are literally trying to dig up the truth and a strange and powerful "something" is trying to stop them.
But that might be vearing away from what you want for thematic elements, so just ignore me otherwise.

As to the previous stuff on spirits and multi-head control CJC, i'm in complete agreement with what you got down.

Lostkith:

Sounds really cool. Here's an idea... one i'm kinda stealing from the Promethean's Pandorans, but how about the Dragon's severed body parts turn into inanimate matter. Like a weird stone, or funky plant. Then it can have some strange mystical properties attached to it that could make for some interesting stories for mortals or other Supernatural critters to help vaguley point in the direction of the exsistence of the Dragon's?

we already have the diamonds (but i want to call them pearls since the Dragons in Asian legends always tells of Dragons being obsessed over a Pearl) that do just that.

just slap on some elements that the Promethan Anthors have make them so the effect is now a benefit for a mortal carrying the Pearl.

Lostkith:

Also, who's to say that some of the dragon's revert back to human form? Might be what some people confuse for a dinosaur fossil. Especially if you take the severed body parts turning into strange natural features to the next level and have their old bodies fossilize right away. A big part of them covering up their exsistence might be getting rid of their old bodies. That could lead to real fun in a mortals' game where they are literally trying to dig up the truth and a strange and powerful "something" is trying to stop them.

indeed but the main reason is that i am kinda picturing a bunch of people (Mortals, Hunters, or some other Superntural splat) trying to clean up a Dragon's body after they killed it (preferablely before the cops come). now the reason why i say human is that adds to the whole "we just killed a Dragon but no one is going to believe us because the corpse lying on the floor is completely human!" element along with portability (really, i can only see the Charon Group being able to scrap a Dragon corpse in less than 30 mins).

there is also the element if Dragons remained in their True Form when they died, how is the world at large going to explain it away? you have the paramedics, you have the hospital staff, you have goverment workers, and in the age of the youtube, it would be very hard just to make it go away.

although i like your idea..my guess is that there are fossils of the "First Dragons" (need to expand that when we do the lore and backstory) still stuck in the mud. any mortal who finds them and tries to reveal them will instantly have a Dragon's attention.

We have a conflict of theme, here.  I'm not saying that it's a bad thing that the dragon reverts to a human form (It certainly works well for the Werewolves), but Gepetto said that the human form was the lie, and the fully manifested aspect version of the Dragon was its true form.  So shouldn't it revert to that state upon death (Or rather, can you come up with a good explanation as to why it is the other way around?)

Maybe something to do with a connection to the heart; that death severs the link between heart and body and so the body ceases to be draconic at all.



On another note, I've closed the discussion of Dragons and the Shadow, and updated the wiki.  I'll be moving on to aspect tweaking next, mainly to attach physical components to the non-physical aspects but possibly to work on balance as well (Such as making scales do +1/0 for odd dots and 0/+1 for even dots, to make it less broken as a natural armor).

Speaking of which... we need to discuss the True Form.  You (Shock) have said that you wanted a special bonus for achieving True Form (+1 to attributes if I remember correctly), but we need to define what True Form really is.  It cannot be "all aspects active to all dots", since some aspects cannot be active more than briefly (Like Inferno).

CJC:

We have a conflict of theme, here.  I'm not saying that it's a bad thing that the dragon reverts to a human form (It certainly works well for the Werewolves), but Gepetto said that the human form was the lie, and the fully manifested aspect version of the Dragon was its true form.  So shouldn't it revert to that state upon death (Or rather, can you come up with a good explanation as to why it is the other way around?)

well, that is true. the main reason why is what i have stated above (the large dragonic corpse that is left behind when a Dragon dies that is very hard to explain away when a person stumbles across it)...

we are going to need to come up with some reason why people don't know about Dragons when they die leaving their big corpses..

how about this: the Aspects that the Dragon has active remain "turned on" when he dies. a Dragon killed by a sniper dies like a regular human that gets shot in the head. when he dies with all of them active, his body remains a big dragon corpse on the floor (and seeing as Dragons get more powerful as more Aspects get turn on, i can see the possibility of a Dragon dying lowering dramatically, which is why most Dragons are killed in their "human form")

CJC:

On another note, I've closed the discussion of Dragons and the Shadow, and updated the wiki.  I'll be moving on to aspect tweaking next, mainly to attach physical components to the non-physical aspects but possibly to work on balance as well (Such as making scales do +1/0 for odd dots and 0/+1 for even dots, to make it less broken as a natural armor).

Speaking of which... we need to discuss the True Form.  You (Shock) have said that you wanted a special bonus for achieving True Form (+1 to attributes if I remember correctly), but we need to define what True Form really is.  It cannot be "all aspects active to all dots", since some aspects cannot be active more than briefly (Like Inferno).

well, True Form is basically all of the Dragon's Physical Aspects activated. as for the shape? it's a mix of Cosmetics effect (the player's choice) and Aspects.

one can make a Western Dragon from all the Aspects, but another can choose to make his True Form the Asian Dragon or a Sea Serpent.

really the possabilites are open up to the player's imagination and how he can use the Aspects to fit the image that he wants.