Sex

I hope this thread is ok to post, moderators! I'm not looking for anything graphic, pornographic, or titillating. It's just that in many different threads, the reason I butt heads with other poster is because of our fundamentally different views on the nature and purpose of sex. So, I'd like this to be a philosophical, rather than a biological, discussion.

According to the way I view things, the following issues can be traced to a misunderstanding of sexuality: divorce, abortion, birth control, homosexuality, lust, fornication, masturbation, pornography, artificial fertilization, and adultery.

For me, sex is primarily a two-fold act: unitive and procreative.

Unitive: it is the expression of the completion of the imago dei, the image of God, which is stamped onto the human soul. The man has "half" of it, and the woman has the other "half." (I don't like the word "half" but whatever.) Together, in sexual union, they become the complete image of God, as was intended by our Creator. It is not good for man to be alone; therefore, God created woman. Sex belongs in marriage, because it is a reaffirmation of your marriage vow. It is the act of marriage. Without marriage, the sex act is a lie,for there is no vow to be affirmed.

Procreative: Sex cannot be divorced from the potential for life (thus, if you are barren, it's not a failing in you). If you alter the sex act in such a way to divorce it from its procreative nature, you do violence to the act.

Sex is both of these things, not just one or the other.

Divorce -- an artificial sundering of the united image of God and a breaking of vows.

Abortion -- the ultimate means of making certain that sex and babies stay separate. Sex is for babies, not merely for pleasure. (It is for pleasure, too, mind!)

Birth control -- a separation of the sex act from its intended purpose.

Homosexuality -- non-unitive, non-procreative, for it neither completes the imago dei nor is open to life.

Lust, Fornication -- sex is not merely a physical act, but lust desires sex apart from unity and procreation. It desires the mere physiciality. One who lusts does not desire a woman (or man) but a pleasure for which a woman (or a man) is the necessary apparatus.

Masturbation -- neither unitive nor procreative, and always coupled with lust.

Pornography -- same as lust and masturbation.

Artificial fertilization -- though it is procreative, it is not unitive. The proper creation of life must be within the bounds of the sex act.

Adultery -- all the things that are wrong with lust and adds it to deceit and oath-breaking.

My thoughts:

Sex is just as meaningless as any other activity or experience. Which is to say, it is as meaningful as one chooses it to be.

Sex, like just about everything else, is a metaphor for all of reality. Reality is kinda fractal that way. If you think about it, the kind of intimacy that sexual congress entails can be experienced with any other activity. Breathing makes us one flesh with the air that nourishes us and follows the same basic rhythms. Even the passage of time can be viewed as each moment wildly copulating with itself and giving birth to the next moment.

It's all a matter of degree. Every experience can overwhelm the senses and conscious thought, producing that satori of no-mind, sex is just a little bit more intense than watching a stone thrown in a pond is all. It's this intensity that really brings out the duality of things, I think. Sex is one of the most earthly things we can do, filling us with desire that can cloud judgement and perception. Yet this very earthliness can be one of the gateless gates to the divine. In the moments after sex, one's body and mind come to a resting point of peace because of the temporary satiation of desire. It is from this point of peace that one is most in touch with whatever you want to call one's essential Truth. The amount of energy built up during sex can be directed into this peaceful place and turn into a powerful spiritual practice, but for most people the energy is almost immediately turned into some sort of mind pattern: sexual addiction, sexual inhibitions, insecurities, etc. This energy makes one powerful and vulnerable at the same time, positive energy is amplified, but so is negative energy.

Again, sex is one of those experiences that illustrates the dualities of reality because of its intensity. It's like how a capacitor works: opposing charges are held in close proximity but not allowed to complete a circuit, creating a tension between the charges. The closer the charges are held in proximity to one another, the greater the tension and the more energy produced when the circuit is finally allowed to complete.

Sex can create a lot of energy because it embodies opposite charges coming together: Divine/mundane, pleasure/pain, dominance/submission, male/female, motion/stillness, in/out, celebration/taboo, hard/soft.

This potential is probably why every civilization, tradition, and religion has some sort of regulation of sexual actvity, because it is a powerful practice that can easily become dangerous. Really, just about any activity can be used for the same purposes, but sex is just very intense. Like any other experience, it can also be worn down and become a jaded exercise with as little energy/meaning as a handshake.

Sex is two people (or more) interacting in a way that the biological urge to mate is released.

any other aspect is purely culture and philosophical.

 

Shock:

any other aspect is purely culture and philosophical.

I may be wrong but I think that is what he intended the thread to talk about primarily.

After all.

mordwyr:

So, I'd like this to be a philosophical, rather than a biological, discussion.

Personally, i see marriage as artificial, and its also an expense.

however, i also feel that we would not have some of the social and economic problems we now find ourselves with (here in the uk at least) if being unmarried, under-age and pregnant were still frowned upon rather than being an accepted part of life and then supported by government handouts.

This illustrates part of my point quite nicley

and you only need to watch daytime tv to know this isn't isolated.
things like The Wright Stuff, Trisha, Jeremey Kyle, Montel Williams, Jerry Springer Et al.
its a sorry state of affairs when teenage girls are getting pregnant to get government support because its easier than getting a job.

I'll just kind of go through the list Mordwyr made

Unitive sex:  whether you are going more with Mordwyr's definition of unitive (like two people coming together in a complete image of God) or unitive simply in the sense of showing love (or barring that extreme, some level of affection) for another I think that this is an entirely positive aspect of sex.  You're creating an atmosphere of emotional and (hopefully for all partners involved) physical pleasure and I think that's just fine.

Procreative sex:  again, an act that I would really see as entirely positive.  The only conceivable way I could see this as being abused would be if say a woman was to try and trick a man into impregnating her (like saying she's on the pill when she isn't or something) but I can't imagine that is a particularly common practice so I would say procreative sex is pretty much always a positive.

Lust/fornication:  sex purely as an act directed at physical pleasure I would say is okay the vast majority of the time.  I understand the qualms some people have about one using another for pleasure, but I would personally feel that as long as this is understood and mutual, it's still a positive act.  If one was to be disingenuous in their interests in another person (like a guy telling his girlfriend he loves her when he doesn't to get sex) I would have a problem with that, but a mutual "using" of one another doesn't to my mind really show disrespect for the other person.

Abortion:  from a moral standpoint I consider abortion wrong in the vast majority of cases (it would take a lot of space to fully explain properly what I mean by that) but not from a standpoint of it divorcing sex and procreation.

Birth control:  going off of what I just said, I don't consider divorcing sex from the purpose of procreation to be a bad thing, so I don't consider the use of birth control to be a bad thing.

Masturbation:  a way of sating our lustful desires.  I think, like any sort of personal indulgence, as long as moderation is used there isn't a problem.  A person could become so obsessed with masturbation as to be socially damaging, but I think most people are capable of engaging in this activity without doing any real harm.

Divorce:  obviously I consider divorce, like most people do, to be a negative thing in the sense that two people are breaking their bond with each other.  However, I think that two people forcing themselves to live in an unhappy marriage, especially if there are children involved, would probably be a far more negative thing.  I think that today marriage and divorce are both taken too lightly by many people, but it is understandable that two people could enter into a bond that simply doesn't work in the long run and it would be better to end it than continue with the mistake.

Homosexuality:  I like girls, but not all guys do (and some girls do).  I think that homosexuality is a way for some people to achieve happiness in their own lives and it doesn't hurt anyone.  I say go for it if it pleases you.

Pornography:  similar to masturbation, I think pornography can be a helpful tool in sating our lusts in a way that doesn't really do any harm.  Again, I think moderation is key, but most people watch porn at some point in their lives and society hasn't collapsed.

Artificial fertilization:  some people are unfortunately incapable of having kids the usual way, but I don't think that should stop them if we can find a way around it.  It seems unfair for someone to have a lot of love to shower on a child and not be able to have child.

Adultery:  with the exception of rape, probably the worst thing associated with sex.  It's a violation of another person's trust and love.  I don't see any problem with people having an open relationship, nor do I think that an act of infidelity is always a reason to end a relationship (people can feel guilt and change their ways afterall), but cheating on someone is just such a low act in my mind that I don't really have any tolerance for it.

*Prostitution:  I personally would never (at least I hope I will never come to this point) use the services of a prostitute.  On one hand, it just seems kind of sad to have to pay for sex, but it also seems like a cheapening of the whole experience by lowering it to a purely financial transaction.  On the whole though, it's similar in some ways to masturbation as a way of sating lust without really harming anyone (obviously some prostitutes are forced to live/perform in horrible conditions, but that isn't how it HAS to be and I'm talking about situations where it isn't the case).



Mordwyr (only answer if you feel comfortable doing so), would you consider that only act of sex that could entail both the unitive and procreative aspects of sex to be missionary position?  Or would you consider any sexual positions that would be likely to lead to pregnancy (vaginal sex is what I'm driving at) to be acceptable?

Renji:

would you consider that only act of sex that could entail both the unitive and procreative aspects of sex to be missionary position?

hahaha Hell no! Isabelle and I throw each other all over the room, and we have a special S-shaped sex chair/sofa that enables us to explore multiple, nut-blowing positions! ^_^ The missionary position is nice for intimacy, but sometimes you just want to be a roughneck.

Renji:

Or would you consider any sexual positions that would be likely to lead to pregnancy (vaginal sex is what I'm driving at) to be acceptable?

Word to that. Of course, it's not to say that we do not engage in all kinds of non-vaginal sex, as long as the completion of the sex act is vaginal, that we're not using each other (yes, married couples can totally use each other), and that it is open to life.

Personally I try not to categorise anything even remotely related to the sphere of sex and sexual. Marriage is meaningless to me until two people engaged in it give it their own, unique meaning, which is true about most things (in my eyes), which is where I agree with Ophidi. I find the prospect of "promising" eternal love to the other person both very restraining and slightly naive. How can one keep a promise of love? Wouldn't it just give a false sense of security? Don't get me wrong, it's very romantic and I'm sure many people really mean it when they make that promise and also try to genuinely keep to their word but can anybody really control his feelings? Isn't love supposed to be free and about freedom? I realise that many find the security of a steady relationship sanctified by their faith and religion very comforting and indeed it may give them wings instead of appearing as shackles - it's just not so for me, at the moment. I'm guessing Mordwyr sees it differently.

And sex - for me bears the potential to be practically anything. It can be a portal to another world, it can be two bodies rubbing against each other in animalish lust, it can be nothing at all. For the most part I side with George Bataille and Jacques Lacan on this one, the jouissance in it is undeniable and the experience of orgasm is otherworldly. It feels like dying. There's nothing else like it.

and as for the "Isabelle and I throw each other all over the room, and we have a special S-shaped sex chair" - way too much information :) unless you've also tried out the sex-swing which I'm curious about and are willing to share sth about that experience... As it's pretty darn expensive.

Kamatej:

and as for the "Isabelle and I throw each other all over the room, and we have a special S-shaped sex chair" - way too much information :) unless you've also tried out the sex-swing which I'm curious about and are willing to share sth about that experience... As it's pretty darn expensive.

You should have seen the tea-party thread a few months ago. The forum veterans know what I'm taking about... ^_^

The ESSE was expensive! With shipping, it was $600.

The sex swing is awesome!

I'm glad you guys concentrated on commenting on the very essence of my post :) And sorry for the texas cookie massacre in the pictures from japan thread again, and Mordwyr knows what I'm talking about.

Don't worry about it, Kama!

Kamatej:

I find the prospect of "promising" eternal love to the other person both very restraining and slightly naive.

I used to have a sig file until recently about love being bound rather than blind.  It is somewhat relevant in this case because love, genuine love, desires to be bound.  Love wants to promise eternity.

Kamatej:

Don't get me wrong, it's very romantic and I'm sure many people really mean it when they make that promise and also try to genuinely keep to their word but can anybody really control his feelings

Now here is where we seem to diverge.  I would state that love is not a feeling, not an emotion.  Love is an act of the will.  On our wedding day, I swore to love Mordwyr until death.  I shall keep that oath.  My feelings on the matter are now irrelevant.  I will love him because I promised that I would.  The thing about emotions is that they are fickle.  They change.  They change from day to day, from hour to hour, even minute to minute.  But throughout all the 12+ years of our marriage, I can honestly say that there has not been a time when I have not willed, desired, and worked for Mordwyr's good, even ahead of my own.  That is what love is.  The nice thing about that is that if you keep it up, the feelings will fall in line.

Oh, and the sex chair is absolutely incredible.  That said, I am also extremely partial to "love hotels."  It's my favorite place for Mordwyr to take me on a date.  (Yes, we still go on dates.  There was an old thread around here all about dating, and it was my contention that married dating is the best kind.  You get all the fun of going out with your love interest, without any of the "should I sleep with him after this?", "do I have spinach in my teeth?", "does he like this outfit?", "who is going to pay for this?" tedium. ^_- )

Mordwyr:

I hope this thread is ok to post, moderators!

I don't have an issue with it...so long as we don't stray into condemning people for their sex practices...

Love as an act of will. Well, if I considered that true it would be pretty world-shattering for my view on such things. I guess love is a different thing for everyone and I bet it also changes for an individual throughout his or her lifetime. And it definitely often escapes definitions, although I must say you seem genuinely confident and at peace with your own. Which is pretty much the point, in my opinion...

On second thought - that's a bit nietzschean, isn't it? Love as an act of will. "I willed it thus".

Do the feelings really fall in line if you continue on such a path? Do you think it works so for everyone, or could at least?

It's becoming a thread about love and marriage more than sex. What does that tell you, by the way?