Sex

You know, I will definitely agree with Mord about sex being unitive.  Of course, I disagree in the particulars.

Sex is what it is.  It is how our species continues itself, and it's how a lot of people express affection, lust, a desire for intimacy, or any combination thereof.  Of all those things, I consider the procreative angle the least important, at least in our society (there are plenty of kids in orphanages needing homes right now), but I understand the biological imperative to spread your genes rather than take on someone else's.

I don't have a problem with pornography in concept, but people are ill-equipped to handle it because of how lazy we are intellectually and how eager we are to push people into categories to accommodate that laziness, by which I mean porn is not the same thing as sex and people really ought not to equate the two.  I also think it encourages the exploitation of women, since the last time I checked, the industry is pretty much unregulated (admittedly, I haven't checked in this current decade).

Masturbation is fine.  People need release.

My biggest problem with sex is American culture.  We are sexualizing our daughters younger and younger.  I live in a town with three junior high schools and three high schools, and the way the girls are dressing makes me really uncomfortable.  High schoolers are wearing outfits I generally associate with the outfits worn by the stars of nineties-era porn.  I have no idea how old kids are these days because they're trying so hard to look legal.  I dunno.

Artificial fertilization is fine.  Chemotherapy should not kill your chance to have a kid.  Go jack off into a Dixie cup and stick it into the fridge so your wife can have a chance at having a piece of you once you're gone.

Homosexuality is fine.  I can't believe it's even subject to judgment, frankly.  A person loves who they love.  They express that love the only ways they know how.  One of those expressions is sex.  I think that if a thing cannot be expressed, then it dies as if it never existed, and letting love die without ever being given voice is just awful.

Isabelle:

I would state that love is not a feeling, not an emotion.  Love is an act of the will.  On our wedding day, I swore to love Mordwyr until death.  I shall keep that oath.  My feelings on the matter are now irrelevant.  I will love him because I promised that I would.  The thing about emotions is that they are fickle.  They change.  They change from day to day, from hour to hour, even minute to minute.  But throughout all the 12+ years of our marriage, I can honestly say that there has not been a time when I have not willed, desired, and worked for Mordwyr's good, even ahead of my own.  That is what love is.  The nice thing about that is that if you keep it up, the feelings will fall in line.

Quoted for Truth.

If you don't get the concept of loving someone as an act of will, I suggest M. Scott Peck's The Road Less Traveled.

I think much more is made of sex than needs to be made.

I think this is the direct result of unhealthy amounts of emphasis placed on it with Western culture, and within American culture specifically.

There is nothing wrong with attributing the act of love to the act of sex, but the two are not somehow inseparable. Any meaning gifted to the act of sex is there because we attribute it - whether that is an emotion, a religious statement, a magical (spiritual) statement, or a cultural one. Sex means nothing by itself; it is sex, it is an act of release for one or more parties. Sex literally refers to copulation, but I assume we're mature enough to refer to all sexual acts, rather than just one variety.

I think this unhealthy attitude results in disappointment, frustration, and a lack of fulfillment for many men and women, because they are so hung on up on the meaning of the thing that they never learn to enjoy the mechanics, and they never learn to enjoy the act of discovery. Some people get depressed when they learn sex does not innately deepen a relationship with someone, and some become downright unstable as they try to force themselves (or other parties) to feel emotions they did not feel before. It can be very damaging.

Sex is sex, love is love. Sex with someone you love can be very fulfilling. Boundaries within a loving relationship, specifically as they refer to sex, are very important. They are connected, but they are connected because our culture connects relationships with sex, and because it tends to be logical to only be vulnerable with people you really, really trust. But it is still largely a cultural distinction, even if it is one I practice regardless.

Isabelle:

I would state that love is not a feeling, not an emotion.  Love is an act of the will.  On our wedding day, I swore to love Mordwyr until death.  I shall keep that oath.

So what made you decide to will yourself to love him?  That is, what about him made him seem like a better bet than anyone else?  And how would you describe your feelings toward Mordwyr before you took your marriage vows?

Isabelle:

I would state that love is not a feeling, not an emotion.  Love is an act of the will.  On our wedding day, I swore to love Mordwyr until death.  I shall keep that oath.

Uh oh...here comes Gone and his hypotheticals...

What if....you found out Mord cheated on you? And I'm not impying he has or ever would...this is purely a what if. Would you still love him if he cheated on you?


To answer my own question, I'm not sure. I love my wife, and if I discovered she cheated on me I'm not sure if I still would. Maybe a part of me would, but I'm not sure I could really forgive that.

Anyway, not trying to stir the pot, just wondering. You know me...I gotta ask the what ifs.


As for Sex...I don't have much to say on the subject. Its awesome, I like having it.

My thoughts on sex....

This happens, and it is good.  Nothing more need be known.

sometimes i don't think i'll ever have sex

IronShoes:

sometimes i don't think i'll ever have sex

Maybe, but don't let it depress you too much. Sex is not a measure of your value as a human being, whether your ability to do it or your ability to get into a situation to do it. It's just sex. Sex, as an act, is better than doing it yourself, but it's not the end of the world. Obsessing about it tends to make the situation worse.

Instead, ask yourself why you want to have sex. The net answer is either a.) to pass some kind of life milestone (which is, for the record, a silly milestone but I admit it exists) or b.) loneliness. There are other ways to overcome loneliness.

I think that sex and the urges and emotions that go with it can be a rather distructive force in society.  To me, sex is best when it is between two people after they're married.  It's a complicated matter, but the more open sexuality is, the more muddled things get.

Now, I've also never met a couple who waited till they were married to have sex.  Outside of high school, I've never even met a couple who has only had sex with each other. 

I'd be a hypocrit to say that I was any better.  Though I see sex as a thing between two people after marriage as ideal, I haven't exactly followed it, nor do I expect people around me too.  I've accepted that society is how it is, even if it could be better, it won't change.

and what exactly would be better about such society?

Obviously, I'm not Isabelle, but since I ascribe to a similar philosophy of love as an act of will...

JimB:

So what made you decide to will yourself to love him?

The same stuff that always attracts 2 people to each other romantically.  Love as an act of will isn't exclusive of the emotional state of being "in love."  In fact, when you consider the magnitude of the commitment to love it's pretty darn overwhelming.  One way of looking at it is that it's a good thing there is an irrational drive to get any same person over that obstacle.

JimB:

That is, what about him made him seem like a better bet than anyone else?

"Better bet" in what sense?  If you mean as a rational consideration, there are lots of potential good fits from the perspective of similar views, life goals and so on.  But, again, there are all the normal factors that go into people being romantically attracted, including the random chance, spontaneous physical attraction etc..

JimB:

And how would you describe your feelings toward Mordwyr before you took your marriage vows?

By the time you get to the actual ceremony, the commitment is made.  Speaking the vows is a public statement of it but it doesn't change the relationship in and of itself.

Of course, if you mean "feelings" as the emotional experience instead of the conscious commitment, then of course the wedding day is a highly emotionally charged situation and everyone will have different experiences to report.  You get everything from a huge rush to it being anti-climactic.

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Looking forward to hearing answers from Isabelle and others.

IronShoes:

sometimes i don't think i'll ever have sex

Depends on your definition of Sex. Because theres lots of things you can do.

I am using this thread as a flimsy excuse to repeat a Daily Show joke I heard the other day.

At a Republican convention, some ancient old fart or another got up on stage and opined that all pornography is homosexual because it turns lust inward, to which Stewart musingly replied, "Hm...Pornography makes me want to touch my cock...so who's to say I wouldn't enjoy touching someone else's cock?  By gum, I believe I'll give it a try!"

JimB:

I am using this thread as a flimsy excuse to repeat a Daily Show joke I heard the other day.

At a Republican convention, some ancient old fart or another got up on stage and opined that all pornography is homosexual because it turns lust inward, to which Stewart musingly replied, "Hm...Pornography makes me want to touch my cock...so who's to say I wouldn't enjoy touching someone else's cock?  By gum, I believe I'll give it a try!"

LOL

Thats great!