Can geist manifest as ghost?

I'm not sure I've not missed this in rulebook or in threads, but can really geist become visible to others then his Bounded? And when and how geist appears after the Bargain? What is meaning of his appearence?

Bound geists cannot appear visibly except with the use of certain Manifestations. The Sin-Eater bound to the geist might see it as an external, visible entity, but that's purely a mental hallucination. Unbound geists can manifest.

page 10 says that the geist within you can manifest its own sepulchral might to protect you, can conjure phantasms, smash objects with poltergeist strength or even perform more surreal changes.

In the Dem Bones story put out by WW (p.4) it says that Dem Bones is readily visible and in full control of her body (to those capable of seeing the restless dead).

Since Geists are more than ghosts, small-gods of death.. i just read, I see no reason they could not manifest and be completely visible to the mere-mortals as any ghost could.

Apparently, the higher the synergy between Bound and Geist, the closer together Geist and Bound would appear to someone capable of seeing it, when not doing anything to alter this vision of course... call it the at-rest view... , but again, on page 10 it suggests that if it is in control (like you are currently recovering from death), the Geist seems to have a bit of a "leash length???" it can move around in.

From all of the descriptions from various areas, I don't see anything that suggest the Geist is able to "leave the body" ... reach out and slap something... yes, .. Jump out and do a few laps around it's host? ... no.

Hope that helps.

glennhefley:

page 10 says that the geist within you can manifest its ownsepulchral might to protect you, can conjure phantasms, smash objectswith poltergeist strength or even perform more surreal changes.

considering you are blowing off the descriptions given by the writers, I don't agree.. so.. call it what you will.

I really think, with the rest of the descriptions given in the book and from the WW storylines, that if your synergy wasn't strong enough, say down around 2 or 3, and the Geist decided to go against your will, he could reach out and slap a woman on the ass, with his hand visible as you passed her on the sidewalk.

I don't read these restrictions or abilities the Geist has "given up" anywhere, and I really think that the whole purpose for putting out storylines with the publication of a source book is so that the readers can see the source in action as a story in action, .. NOT to show examples that are a -- "particularly weird case and not typical".

glennhefley:

considering you are blowing off the descriptions given by the writers, I don't agree.. so.. call it what you will.

Yeah, thanks, I've got the point.

Kordeth:

glennhefley:

considering you are blowing off the descriptions given by the writers, I don't agree.. so.. call it what you will.

Considering I wrote the sections in question, you're free to not agree, but you're not going to win any authorial intent debates with me. :)

This is where the kids would say "oh snap."

In theory, a Sin-Eater results in the fusion of a human spirit with that of a Geist.  The extent of their bond is represented by their Synergy rating.  The Geist, for the most part, is just another part of that human's internal landscape.  Sure, if a Mage or a Changeling went tinkering around in that SE's dreams, they might find the Geist there.. visiting and chatting externally.  However, the Geist is thoroughly fused with the mortal, not possessing it.  The Geist gets to feel every thought (Well, hopefully not EVERY..), every motion, and every moment though his host.  It is a truly human experience, until Manifestations come into the picture.

Of course, as Synergy decreases, this bond doesn't become quite so tight.  We've seen a few of the unique things that Geists seem to be able to do as Synergy drops.  They may start Manifesting without their Host's permission, maybe even refusing to Manifest for the host.  If that's the case, a Geist with Phantmasmal Marionette may well step out of body and appear on his own.   It might start "haunting" the Host, trying to intimidate it into compliance.  In the end, it can even seize control over the body.  However, despite these changes (Which may or may not explain Dem Bones, as I have yet to read that), the geist is still bonded to the human.  It isn't just overlapping, or wearing the human.  Even when their Synergy is low, the Geist isn't Unfettered.  It's inside the Sin-Eater, a vital part of it.

Note that most of the Manifestations that allow the Geist to leave the body in any major way (Boneyard, Phantasmal Marionette, etc), the human host has to go into a trance to maintain the disconnect.  This means that a Geist leaving the body is obviously an unnatural and difficult thing, and is useful enough to be counted as one of the "super powers" of a Sin-Eater.  If Geists could just slip out of body and do their own thing, it'd 1) Lessen the value and meaning of all of those powers, and 2) contradict the notion that a Geist and a Bound are truly ONE being.

Cleverest of Things:

The extent of their bond is represented by their Synergy rating.  The Geist, for the most part, is just another part of that human's internal landscape.

Granted, the connection can't be broken, but bonding isn't required to be a "weaving" of the souls so that the two are one, nor is this the way it is described in the source, no matter who wrote it, and if we are changing this meaning it should be done in an errata not invented in a forum post, which contradicts everything else written.

Take for example, Siamees Twins.. seperate and automonous minds, one body one soul.. or .. could be.. we don't know that.. but.. the point is, neather of these people are getting away from each other either. They are, BONDED. -- but that doesn't keep one from being the domanate personality, from them having fights or from one slaping the other upside the head.

--"The traumatic nature of the Bargain actually causes the two essences to partially merge"

That doesn't describe a "weaving of the souls" Partially merged describes a connection more like the Siamese twins, than the "two are one".

--"The degree to which this merging is complete and total depends greatly on the geist and the mortal host in question." --

going on to talk about the geist and synergy -- which describes what is shown in the Dem Bones storyline as the normal course of events.

So, there is no source reason this manifestation could not occur in a storyline, and to have the author tell me -- flat out  it can't happen go away StoryTeller you are Bothering me, using a description which contradicts his own story-source, is less than amusing.

And that Snap you heard? was my hand snapping back from buying the next book he writes.


 

While I agree that the degree of fusion is largely dependent on the Geist, the Host, and their Synergy, it can also be said that the two souls are still connected.  Using your Siamese Twin idea, the second twin cannot move away from the body they share, just like a Geist.  It has no arms, unless it Manifests some using a Manifestation.  The Geist cannot spiritually leave the body except through other Manifestations, otherwise those Manifestations would be redundant.

ave:

I'm not sure I've not missed this in rulebook or in threads, but can really geist become visible to others then his Bounded? And when and how geist appears after the Bargain? What is meaning of his appearence?

This is what Ave asked. "Can it become visible to people other than his Bounded?"

No one.. especially me, even suggested that the Geist could "Leave his host" -- he asked  "And when and how geist appears after the Bargain?"

You, the writer, responded with "no".

I really don't care, what gripes me is the "no" dominate in your posts. I pegged you for a forum troll after reading a dozen of your posts when I first started coming here, and certainly not the writer... e'gads man what are you thinking?

All source books, no matter how well thought out, planned, and edited are going to have hundreds of areas were StoryTellers are going to come up with things that you simply can not plan or source for in the mechanics of the game. That is a given, and while beginning Gamers might find that frustrating, that's the way it is. Experineced Gamers understand and come to forums looking for ways to see how their ideas might work, and what is going to break if they do it.

Telling your readers and gamers, no, is paramount to saying.. I don't give a crap, which is why we identify people who consistently do this in forums as Trolls.

I get emails all of the time, from people in Scion and Geist, asking me how the character Forever Jack can be used in their game. Some of those emails have some really wacko ideas... The closest I have ever told one of these "wacko" ideas "No, can't be don."  is:

"Well... I don't think the writers really had Jack in mind when they were writing this, in fact I know they didn't.. and Jack isn't meant to be an RPG character. In RPG he's like a Shadow God, but his character isn't like that at all. So, here is what might break if you decide to try to do what you want to do... and take it from there... Let me know how it turns out, sounds like fun."


For this idea, of the Geist being "visible" to others, there is plenty of source reference for this to happen. The writers didn't have this in mind when the mechanics were created, and Dem Bones was more of a "mood/description" thing than a mechanics thing, but if you want to do that.. here's what might break if you do...

1) if he's just visible, to those in Twilight, probably nothing, and it might be a good way for the PC's to be able to make an assessment call on how well the NPC they are talking to are getting along with their Geist... but, also, the other Geist would be aware of this kind of thing, so use a bluff call if the NPC is really low on the synergy scale... maybe.. not sure.. but something to keep in mind.

2) if the Geist is going to manifest as visible to the normals, again, not really planned in the mechanics, but kind of cool.... PC is surrounded in the alley by a bunch of drunks, and not really interested in fighting these guys, so the Geist pops out and says "Arrg!" ... scares them away.. the Beetlejuice attack. However, this could be something that loosens synergy. After all, the PC is basically "reminding" the Geist that he is a seperate being, and according to source, he had to submit, give up the key and accept his position as Geist inside the Sin-Eater to get this far back into the world. A Sin-Eater that continually shoves in the face of a Geist that he is not really free to do anything in this world, that he is bond as "slave"... that could cause some deep, long term resentment from the Geist. So I would think Synergy issues would definitely be in play.

3) Wacking and hitting from the Geist?, is making the two-headed four-arm monster if... fully manifest so that the Geist can attack. Again, Geist can't leave the body completely ... never mind that part where his heart is in your hand... that's a whole different mechanic...

If you are going for this type of thing.. I would probably turn back while you can. You are adding a lot of attacks, paperwork, .. other Sin-Eaters have the same ability, old women are passing out on the streets, Cats and Dogs Living Together, ..  you are going to quickly decend into mayhem. 

One way it might work is --  if the Sin-Eater attacks, the Geist can't do anything but help (as in the way the Geist is normally helping now.. plasm direction, toughing up skin and muscle, etc). If the Geist attacks, then the Sin-Eater can't. Both of them can not use the plasm pool at the same time -- this might work, but there are still problems ... too many to get into really.

Anyway, those are some suggestions if your storyline is demanding something like this, to keep balance in the game ... remember ... no balance, no fun. Just the way it is.

Let me know how it works out... sounds like fun. But if it breaks... not my fault :-)

---

I buy these games to have fun, meet with people, express ideas, and wander the paths of dark imagination.  I don't buy them to have the writer tell me, F'off, it can't be done, when I ask about an "idea" or "can this happen" and "hey, what does appear mean?"

As one of my players put it, "Heck, if we wanted crap from a troll we could go to a French restaurant and be taunted professionally."

You are the writer, you are the one with the "source imagination". If you don't want to help the game be fun, expand ideas, make it worth the huge investment of time and money, (maintain value).. at least don't make it drool.

glennhefley:

I buy these games to have fun, meet with people, express ideas, and wander the paths of dark imagination.  I don't buy them to have the writer tell me, F'off, it can't be done, when I ask about an "idea" or "can this happen" and "hey, what does appear mean?"

Questions are usually asked in context of the rules themselves. Being made more aware of the rules hardly amounts to "You cannot have fun!!!!" There is also no point in asking a question if everyone always answers "yes you could do that." Were this the case, it would just save time to do it that way houserule or no. People want to know what the rules are so that they can either act in accordence with them or know where they are houseruling. Sometimes they miss a small section of the book or aren't quite certain what the author indended. The OP didn't clarify which and got an answer from one of the authors regarding the rules as presented in the books.

I for one, can't really figure out why you are angry except that you made a bogus claim based on a misunderstanding of the text and were told that you read it wrong by the dude who wrote it. We're all wrong at some point. Everyone makes mistakes. In the end, its really not that big a deal. Sure people joked a big because you unknowingly told the author that he was disregarding his own material. It happens. Its a little funny because its ironic.

Stop getting angry over nothing and going strait to tirade mode. Remember that we're discussing a game. No one has attacked you in any way. So take a deep breath, read over those posts with fresh eyes and stop getting in the way of your own enjoyment of the forums.

glennhefley:

I really don't care, what gripes me is the "no" dominate in your posts. I pegged you for a forum troll after reading a dozen of your posts when I first started coming here, and certainly not the writer... e'gads man what are you thinking?

All source books, no matter how well thought out, planned, and edited are going to have hundreds of areas were StoryTellers are going to come up with things that you simply can not plan or source for in the mechanics of the game. That is a given, and while beginning Gamers might find that frustrating, that's the way it is. Experineced Gamers understand and come to forums looking for ways to see how their ideas might work, and what is going to break if they do it.

Telling your readers and gamers, no, is paramount to saying.. I don't give a crap, which is why we identify people who consistently do this in forums as Trolls.

Kordeth has actually, overall, been pretty helpful for giving us a good idea of what the writers were thinking and fleshing out some of the information. He really does not play the "I AM A WRITER, WORSHIP ME I AM BETTER THEN YOU" card I have seen writers play from time to time. It is fair to say he can speak pretty authoritatively on his intent though.

I'm glad he is here.