Is Hunter a lesser template

i'll See digital raven, and i will raise him this post, citing references from the hunter book

DigitalRaven:

Chuck (the Hunter developer, the rest of us are freelance writers) standing up and saying "Hunter is not a template" is vague and contradictory?

Well, yes, if he's directly contradicting the book when he does so...

Maybe I mis-worded the whole thing. I didn't realize templates were causing such a controversy. I thought using that terminology would make things simpler. How wrong I was.

What I basically wanted to know is can a hunter awaken as a mage or if they get embraced do they become a vampire and if so what happens to their hunter specific traits (that are part of the "shit you get above and beyond the blue book" so to speak)? I know that's up to the Storyteller but I was wondering if WoD writers had provided any guidelines. I guess they didn't.

Anyway, thank you all for your replies. Very helpful stuff.

Negflar2099:

What I basically wanted to know is can a hunter awaken as a mage

Negflar2099:

What I basically wanted to know is can a hunter awaken as a mage

hunters are mortal for the purposes of applying templates to them. (vamp, mage, werewolf, geist, Changeling, Prommie ect.)

glamourweaver:

Yes, but they loose all edges provided by being a Hunter (risking willpower, practical experience, etc.)

Thats an ST call, in one of the hunter books it mentions "cancer cells" where there are certain hunter groups that allow supers to join and become full members of their troupe, and learning tactics ect. is completely up to the ST.
personally, i would let anything with a good reason to have it things like professions and tactics. and only really say no when it gets to Tier 3 hunter stuff...

Renfield286:

i'll See digital raven, and i will raise him this post, citing references from the hunter book

Isn't that what he was syaing?

QualitySteel:

DigitalRaven:

So let's be clear. Hunter's template is not a "template" for purposes of other systems that interact with templates. It's a bunch of extra rules over and above the basic bluebook character, but as with so much of the Hunter rules the template actually just expands on those basic human capacities—it's a direct expansion of what it means to be a bluebook character, rather than something over and above.

 That's clear?

Makes perfect sense to me.

Mr Gone:

Renfield286:

i'll See digital raven, and i will raise him this post, citing references from the hunter book

Isn't that what he was syaing?

Yes, that is what he was saying, but the post Renfield linked includes references from the book, which do sometimes help get stubborn people to understand it better.

glamourweaver:

Negflar2099:

What I basically wanted to know is can a hunter awaken as a mage

Yes, but they loose all edges provided by being a Hunter (risking willpower, practical experience, etc.)

Negflar2099:

or if they get embraced do they become a vampire

Yes, with the same caveat.

kurasu:

Yes, that is what he was saying, but the post Renfield linked includes references from the book, which do sometimes help get stubborn people to understand it better.

Ahhh....

QualitySteel:

I get it, Hunters function as a template when it suits the story for them to function as a template, and when it doesn't just ignore it.

I'm going to give this one more stab. Also, I was in a bit of a bad mood when I wrote my original response, and I want to give a more even-handed response that people can refer to in the future.

When we write books, the word Template has two meanings. The first is just "A bunch of features for being part of a group". This exists on the same level as the concepts of dice pools, or the knowledge that a character's Health equals his Stamina + Size. Steps 2, 3, and 4 of character creation (Attributes, Skills, and Specialties) could easily be referred to as applying the "Mortal Template". They're not, but that's the kind of level the term is used on.

Template can also be a shorthand for Supernatural Template. This is something that has an existence in the fictional reality created as part of the game and is something that directly affects a character. Major supernatural templates irrevoccably alter a character's soul, while minor ones offer a change that's not as drastic.

The reason the two uses for "Template" have become interchangeable is because for the first five games in the World of Darkness, the rules-template is also a supernatural template. A vampire gets a bunch of additional rules, and also a fundamental alteration to the soul to do with now being a walking rape metaphor corpse. This trend carried on through books like Skinchangers, and in Second Sight we see our first glance of a supernatural template that doesn't come with an attached rules template. This is also the book that differentiates major and minor supernatural templates and lays out some of the interactions between the two.

Hunter does the opposite. It presents a rules template that is not a supernatural template. Naturally, this causes some cognitive dissonance. It also has some discussion as to whether the features of the rules-template interact with other rules-templates if a character has one applied, effectively presenting thought-out house-rules to keep from unanticipated interactions between systems.

In order to keep the interactions neat, some players find that it helps their games¹ if some of the Hunter groups (usually the Lucifuge, sometimes TCG or even all Tier-3 groups) count as having a minor supernatural template. That's a house-rule, though.

¹: I'm not intending this to sound at all derogatory, and I'm sorry if it comes across that way

DigitalRaven:

I want to give a more even-handed response that people can refer to in the future.

It's appreciated.

namelessIIIEsq:

I thought minor templates were stackable though.  Immortals even pitches the idea of slasher blood bathers, and slashers are definately a minor template.  And there's no way you can tell me that tier 3 hunters aren't a minor template.  All the minor templates that I know of (sans Possessed) get all their 'magic' from merits specific to the template, as opposed to aspects or something like the Changing Breeds.  Yes, Valkyrie's agents are just poeple with tech, but even that's pretty supernatural, with lenses coated in fairy dust, and whatnot.

   Actually, I don't believe the Slashers book even has the word template in it, just that "Don't make supernatural slashers" sidenote.

   Which really doesn't make any sense to me.  Hunters are cinematic heroes,  and how much of that cinematic nature stays with them when they convert into something else is up to ST discretion, but the same isn't true of a cinematic slasher?

   Even though a hunter can become a slasher and keep almost everything?

QualitySteel:

kurasu:

I agree with you here Mr Gone, it makes pretty damn good sense to me as well.

I'm not saying 'I don't get it,' I'm saying that the books are vague and contradictory about the subject.  I get it, Hunters function as a template when it suits the story for them to function as a template, and when it doesn't just ignore it.  It's been debated to death in a half dozen other threads, the golden rule of 'use what works for you' applies, etc. etc.  

It is still a fact that the Hunter book contradicts itself, and further that the lead developer and writers are directly contradicting the book itself.   

i don't think it does.
the only difference i see between hunter and lets say precinct 13 is that hunter gets its own line.
and its perfectly clear (to me at least) that they should be treated as people doing a job, rather than supernaturals: Lamenting their death, Raging at the world, trying to do magical things ect.

they get extra rules to justify their own game line. but that is pretty much it (until tier 3 that is)

Renfield286:

Thats an ST call, in one of the hunter books it mentions "cancer cells" where there are certain hunter groups that allow supers to join and become full members of their troupe, and learning tactics ect. is completely up to the ST.
personally, i would let anything with a good reason to have it things like professions and tactics. and only really say no when it gets to Tier 3 hunter stuff...

Ooh! I'm going to throw something from Night Stalkers in here and hope it hasn't been said before.

The Elixir the Ascending Ones can make that turns them into some kind of Vampire temporarily (if they don't screw it up), has rules for how they, as a Hunter who now has a Major Template, is out of synch with his cell. Essentially, it's a penalty to tactics rolls, among other things. I wish I had the book in front of me to quote from.

If you really want to put one of the Enemy in your group, and run a Cancer Cell, that ability and its drawbacks could be a great guideline to what distinguishes a "Vampire Hunter" from a "Vampire Who Happens To Be A Hunter".

Or, you know, talk to your ST about it and ask him what he would accept. Practical Experience is awarded to the Cell, and it's really up to them how they use their new knowledge. I'd certainly say it's within the realm of common sense to say "Still only applies to Skills and Merits, no Disciplines", so, you know, pick it up from there and see how far you're willing to go with it.

The important thing to note is that it's your game, and the only limits are the limits you and your ST impose on it to keep things sensible. Common sense is really all you need, and things should turn out fine.