Is Hunter a lesser template

There are two reasons I care about templates and wether or not they can stack, Abominations and Sam "What in Holy Hell Were You Thinking" Haine. If fans seem a little obsessive about this remember, you did it to yourselves.

MaxGiesecke:

The Elixir the Ascending Ones can make that turns them into some kind of Vampire temporarily (if they don't screw it up), has rules for how they, as a Hunter who now has a Major Template, is out of synch with his cell. Essentially, it's a penalty to tactics rolls, among other things. I wish I had the book in front of me to quote from.

Alright, I have the book in front of me. Since for all intents and purposes the user becomes a Vampire during the use the Nehebkau Tears Elixir, here are some things that Hunters that are or have become Vampires cannot do:

"He cannot risk Willpower. He cannot utilize his Endowments. He is similarly out of sync with his cell - he can still be a part of Tactics, but suffers -2 dice to do so."

Since this is specifically for an Ascending One utilizing his Elixirs (and processing and digesting those nearly requires being alive), a non-temporary supernatural, like a permanent Vampire, is entirely subject to ST approval on whether or not other Endowments are applicable. In the extremely unlikely scenario of a Vampire being allowed to be installed with an RFID chip by TF:V, it's theoretically possible they would be allowed to access Endowments. Whether or not this would be balanced or contribute to the setting is, again, really up to the ST.

smee:

There are two reasons I care about templates and wether or not they can stack,

*raises Eyebrow*

smee:

Abominations

No longer exist, thats 2 greater templates stacking, that's a definite no no.

smee:

and Sam "What in Holy Hell Were You Thinking" Haine.

Sam Height was the fellows name.
and he was a powergamers wet dream and an ST's worst nightmare. 
and after the chaos factor adventure, he was a nice soul steel ash tray.

im not sure anyone actually used him as a character beyond those twinked out adventures that he was in.
and im sure most ST's who were presented with such a character by a player would have the "No" Stick on hand.

smee:

If fans seem a little obsessive about this remember, you did it to yourselves.

its better to have the exception to the rule on an ST's behalf, than to have  a rule that vindicates players to make characters to make STs Cry.

The point remains, Samuel Height's mere existence was the start of thousands (more?) of arguments between Storytellers and Players. Sam 'What the Holy Hell Were You Thinking?' Height works just fine as a descriptor for me.

On the other hand, if a member of The Promethean Brotherhood from Witchfinders successfully performs the Rite Of Hecate they temporarily gain the Gnosis merit and some of the Mysteries of their victim, basically becoming a Mage for a while, but suffer no penalties or restrictions on what they can do as Hunters during that period.  So it seems not every Major Template conflicts with being a Hunter.

The Rite of Hecate doesn't turn the Hunter into a Mage. It turns him into a Witch.
I missed rules for using the Rite with  mages (although it was just a little sidebar).

Arcane:

On the other hand, if a member of The Promethean Brotherhood from Witchfinders successfully performs the Rite Of Hecate they temporarily gain the Gnosis merit and some of the Mysteries of their victim, basically becoming a Mage for a while, but suffer no penalties or restrictions on what they can do as Hunters during that period.  So it seems not every Major Template conflicts with being a Hunter.

no major template confilcts with being a hunter. not really.

Renfield286:

smee:

There are two reasons I care about templates and wether or not they can stack,

*raises Eyebrow*

smee:

Abominations

No longer exist, thats 2 greater templates stacking, that's a definite no no.

smee:

and Sam "What in Holy Hell Were You Thinking" Haine.

Sam Height was the fellows name.
and he was a powergamers wet dream and an ST's worst nightmare. 
and after the chaos factor adventure, he was a nice soul steel ash tray.

im not sure anyone actually used him as a character beyond those twinked out adventures that he was in.
and im sure most ST's who were presented with such a character by a player would have the "No" Stick on hand.

smee:

If fans seem a little obsessive about this remember, you did it to yourselves.

its better to have the exception to the rule on an ST's behalf, than to have  a rule that vindicates players to make characters to make STs Cry.

Abominations might not exist as the combination of major templates, but a plain old Hunter game (Especially one in which the Storyteller has somehow not read or accessed any of the other main game-lines) might home brew them with the typical Hunter monster-maker rules.  This is not exactly the same thing (As these "Abominations" are likely a whole NEW race/template, or more likely the only of their kind anyone in a given chronicle will ever meet). 

More importantly, however, is the distinction between Template as a Race and Template as a rule.  As Raven pointed out, the two are somewhat distinct, but gamers have often used them as the exact same thing.  Because the words were often used interchangably, it causes confusion as to what can be done between "minor rule changes" and "minor races".  Hunter points out this confusion nicely--As people have said, the Lucifuge could be considered a minor race, while no other hunters are a new race (Unless you want them to be in your own Chronicle).  Still, it makes sense to be able to mix minor templates, especially as Hunters--A ghoul can turn on his Master, an enchanted mortal may dislike the Fae as much as any Changeling, etc.  However, this applies to some minor templates from non-hunter lines as well.  Can a person affected by the Fae partly, who is Enchanted and not Changed, develop psychic powers, learn hedge magic, etc?  Using a rules-only Template description, you'd think "No".  Using a view on a racial template, you'd say yes.

It IS somewhat related to Sam Height.  Of course, just about any storyteller would flinch at the mere mention of the name.  Luckily, the gamelines have both rule and racial reasons that they cannot have stacked major templates.  However, the Sam Height complex is not only practical for minor templates (Especially if someone wants to play a minor template alongside majors, and thus is at a slight disadvantage), it is also fairly easily justified since the minors are all effectively human enough to undergo more slight laterations to their abilities (Rather than the huge change of their nature and identity that is caused by adopting a Major Race change).  This leads to questions whether this is possible or not. 

I like the way Hunter does it, though.  Certainly, it makes Teir 1-2 Hunters more effective.  It also makes a damn good story in most cases.  I think this is applicable to other minor templates as well.  Stackability like Sam Height is scary and twinky.  Stackability in other cases isn't so bad.

But again, its all up to the ST's decisions anyway.  Hell, some STs could ingore the "no major template stacking" if it's better for their game (And when used in small quantities).

Who is Sam Height?

Wolfen Fenrison:

Who is Sam Height?

Based on your line of thinking either

AlsoAnima:

Wolfen Fenrison:

Who is Sam Height?

Based on your line of thinking either

a) The most awesome character ever

or

b) WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU THINKING?!

Myself, I'm more in the "really great character, from a concept point of view, quite interesting implementation at first, not so great implementation later" line of thinking.

Did not read all the posts in this thread since I am pressed for time, but the discussion did give rise to a curious thought that I would like to ask your oppinion on:

A 3rd Tier Hunter is embraced by a vampire, does he/she get to keep his/her Endowments? In some cases I would say definit yes and in other cases a definit no, but in some cases where the Endowments are innate supernatural abilities, such as Castigation, there's a big maybe.

There's also the question of Professional Training Merit, since I'd say the new character would lose his/her Profession and Asset Skill, and situations might have serious impact on his/her connections.

Anyway, my real question involved the Endowments so I would like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

The official answer seems to be that a Hunter loses all their 'cool stuff' when they gain a greater template. But here's what I would do.

AlsoAnima:

Skari-dono:

There's also the question of Professional Training Merit

Remains intact, but cannot be increased.

Professional Training is a Hunter only merit, you would lose professional training but keep the benefits such as contacts since those are not hunter specific.

Kyouka:

AlsoAnima:

Skari-dono:

There's also the question of Professional Training Merit

Remains intact, but cannot be increased.

Professional Training is a Hunter only merit, you would lose professional training but keep the benefits such as contacts since those are not hunter specific.

You should have read my post. I prefaced it by putting an official answer first. The second part of my post was dedicated to what I would do as a storyteller. So please try to read the entire post.