"OK, I'm not really a virgin." - Ventrue Clan Weakness Question

Regarding the Ventrue Clan weakness, where they can only drink certain kinds of blood. Is this based on Ventrue psychology or is it mystically enforced? For example, if a girl lies about being a virgin and a Ventrue who only drinks the blood of virgins drinks her blood, does he find himself unable to swallow it because he can't drink non-virgin blood, or is he fine with it because he completely thinks that she is a virgin?

The books can be a bit evasive about it.

But basically it is both psychological and mystic.  The weakness itself is psychological, but supernaturally powerful to the point of Ventrue spitting up the wrong blood, even if it means their Final Death, no matter how much they'd rather not.

So a Ventrue that only feeds on virgins would have to grow fairly socially adept at reading kine for if their displayed virginity matches reality.  However, they'd know the instant blood was drawn if it was the right stuff or not.

That's a good question! I always play it mystical, as in, you start puking up blood and realize she lied to you. "You're not a virgin!" you roar. Etc.

If it's just psychological, I see it as Wily Coyote running in mid-air until he realizes there's no ground beneath his feet....and then he falls. A bit too Looney Tunes for me.

Just drink from children.

I think I mentioned this previously on a broader clan-weakness related topic, but I really like the idea that every aspect of the vampiric condition is essentially psychological. It's a theme I enjoy exploring in-game and in-character when playing and through some of my NPCs when storytelling.

It doesn't always translate into any mechanical changes, although I have occasionally allowed some and had one character I was playing which was allowed a massive step that kept in keeping with the concept.

A fairly big chunk of Genesis is about choice and knowledge as they relate to the idea of sin. Adam and Eve- make choices, gain knowledge, it's a sin. Caine, gets angry, makes a choice, it's a sin. That theme tends to repeat itself a lot throughout the old testament; disobedience and awareness of the nature of disobedience are sins and are punished. Obedience and exacting adherence to the laws, rules and various dictates of God without wavering or considering options are the kinds of acts that are rewarded or praised.

So I play around with the idea that in White-Wolf-Verse, God's curse upon Caine was in keeping with his sin of choice and disobedience. Caine is now completely and utterly responsible for every aspect of his own reality. Every choice is his own, he no longer has a God to turn to in helping him make it with rules for behavior. Every consequence is eternally his, there is no forgiveness, no relenting, no barrier between the action of choice and results that ensue. The weight of every choice, every belief is enormous, far more than any other human mind has ever had to carry. Plus... the more freedom and power an entity has, the greater their potential for sin, sin they now have to carry for all eternity.

These choices, this self-belief can then manifest as vampiric powers and vampiric weaknesses. Everything a vampire considers true, real or possible is, for them. It's easy to give in to whim and desire and instinct and become pretty well good and damned, from a religious standpoint. It's also really really easy for some strange ideas to start floating around in the collective belief system over the course of a few millenia.

Vampiric weaknesses- clan weaknesses, a vulnerability to fire and sunlight, the effects of staking, the feeling of euphoria normally associated with feeding, the very need for blood, every discipline... every single power and weakness and aspect that makes them different from the rest of humanity is a subconscious manifestation of the power of choice and self determination, passed down through the blood. They think they should be a certain way- so they manifestly are that way- or they think their childer will have certain traits, so those traits then end up being displayed in the resulting new vampire.

It explains clan flaws and discipline sets following lines, communally held beliefs reinforcing those unique characteristics over and over while simultaneously tending to be skeptical of deviations. Every other vampire of Clan X has flaw Y, so when they explain the new reality to their childe, they frame it as an inherent part of it. It's accepted at face value and, once accepted as true, manifests as such. Every vampire who learns Discipline A does so in the following order, this is accepted at face value and, once believed...

It explains the seemingly spontaneous development of many of the merits and flaws the system can encompass- repulsed by garlic and repelled by crosses... mortal beliefs about mythical vampires held to be true by the subconscious mind of the newly embraced, manifesting itself as a result. And of those rare individuals, caitiff who were embraced by a member of a known clan who developed differently, or those who don't have preconceptions of their condition fed to them by someone else that end up taking divergent routes in their growth or manifestation of vampirism.

So I definitely like the idea that a clan flaw is all psychological. It doesn't necessarily mean that I change the rules in the least to reflect that. Though the Ventrue clan flaw is one of the easier ones to manipulate, since there's a lot of room for error in their perceptions of their intended prey. I don't know that I'd necessarily Wiley E Coyote it, where a sudden realization causes perfectly timed vomiting... but I might let them hold down the blood they believed to fit their prey category while feeling queasy and suspicious. Introducing the idea in-character that it might all be psychological and pushing them off to go explore the limits of vampirism through impractical and inadvisable experimentation.

I think the best way to take out the doubts is to read the clan weakness on Dark Ages Vampire (Revised). There it is unmistakeable written "Ventrue gains no sustenance from such blood.".

I agree it's a psychological flaw in general, it plays well with how a Ventrue looks on the World and adds theme. But in essence it is a mystical flaw and to suport this even further I'll another detail. Survival is the most basic instinct of any being and if it was purely psychological flaw, a Ventrue on the verge of Final Death would drink ANY blood available. In despair anyone is capable of anything. And I also believe that in such a situation a Ventrue would drink even rat blood, but since it's mystical he can drink as much as he wants he'll still get no sustenance from it. Of course since it's also psychological, until a Ventrue is put in that situation he'll never know it's a mystical flaw...

I've always ran it purely psychological, if the Ventrue is utterly convinced (and it's not a cheap shot pulled by the troupe, unless for some entertainment purpose, such as a Tada!-moment once every decade or so!) that the victim matches the criteria, the Ventrue gains sustenence. Should this be reveled to not be so, within reasonable time, the blood points will just go away.
When frenized, and hungry (rather, not quite full) the beast will try to secure the proper vessel first, but will then, in pure futility try to drink any availible blood, which it naturally does not gain any sustance from.
I find the "virgin radar" (or what else have at you) it can quickly devolve into rather silly, personally.

A couple of sessions back, the Ventrue Antitribu of the troupe botched a hunting roll on a night club, which would played out as he found a perfect vessel, but after drinking a few sips, he noticed the obvious signs of hair colouration - immedietly vomiting up the blood over her in disgust of it's (sudden) foul taste. Yeah, he got one of those classic arian blonde women feeding restrictions!

Is this question serious ?
Come on... the weakness of each clan is a CURSE imposed by Caine himself... HOW can it be psychological?

Seriously... do you HONESTLY think that whenver a Tzimisce is embraced, the sire tells the neophyte, "hey, you must always sleep upon your born dirty" ?
And oud the "simptons" always be the same ?

Jeez... IT'S A CURSE! IT'S MYSTICAL!!!!

Droll:

Come on... the weakness of each clan is a CURSE imposed by Caine himself

The Tremere and some of the Assamite curse versions disagree with you.

Zeev:

The Tremere and some of the Assamite curse versions disagree with you.

The Assamite question is tricky because they only remembered "Hey it'd be real cool if the Assamites had castes and powers and stuff wouldn't it?" on 3rd Revised Edition of Vampire The Masquerade. So you can have all sorts of discussions about the "caste weakness" from the Vizier and Sorcerer castes.

The Tremere is quite simple: they turned themselves into vampires, so there is no clan weakness and no curse. Ok there is the blood bound etc etc but its a rule imposed by the Clan, not a clan weakness. The Counsil of Seven doesn't have one.

Weaknesses are mystical and psychological or only mystical. None is strictly psychological.

Droll:

the weakness of each clan is a CURSE imposed by Caine himself

Got a page number for that?

And even if you do- is that an in-character conclusion or out of character storyteller information?

'cause I am pretty sure your phrasing it as an absolute makes you wrong.

Loxosceles:

Got a page number for that?

I can't state a single page number, from a specific book, but I too remember reading about how there is a theory for why and how each founder of each clan got cursed for one reason or the other and it spread through it's descendents. But I'll concede to the fact that, thought it's always a mystic flaw, there is no canon reason for why each clan has it's weakness. I think there are various options and is left for the ST to pick which suits him/her better.

Loxosceles:

And even if you do- is that an in-character conclusion or out of character storyteller information?

I believe we're discussing our opinion as players and ST's and not what the characters in the game think of why they have the weakness. Of course a stuck up Ventrue doesn't come to the conclusion that his taste for virgins comes from a curse laid upon the clan millenia ago!

Prophet:

I believe we're discussing our opinion as players and ST's and not what the characters in the game think of why they have the weakness. Of course a stuck up Ventrue doesn't come to the conclusion that his taste for virgins comes from a curse laid upon the clan millenia ago!

There have been a rash of folks lately who are taking the kind of in-character perspectives that are presented in many of the books and phrasing them as out-of-character absolutes regarding the setting as presented.

Things like... "The book of nod says..." or when stories and histories are presented in the theme and mood portions of the various books and supplements.

So in this case... Offhand, I don't recall a specific source where Caine laid the clan flaw curses on all of the antidiluvians and where that was presented as factual, rather than a question of lore as understood in-character. I do recall a number of stories where he laid a specific curse against a specific anti and the idea that generational decay was one of his curses can be found as well... but even if there is a book that says Caine dropped every clan flaw onto each anti as a curse, that information carries exactly as much weight when it comes to the setting and the rules as any individual storyteller wants to give it.

Even the histories that are presented in various books of the timeline pre-dark ages must be regarded as what the majority of cainites think happened. Historical accuracy in-game functions much like it does in the real world, where various historians have put forth their (generally evidenced but not undeniably proven) theories, viewpoints, opinions and conjecture about past events. There was no history presented in the rules sections of any of the books- there was no rule that the clan flaws HAVE to be from a specific source- for the time periods presented as settings players are intended to poke (mind you, people will play whatever, wherever and whenever they want in the timeline), there is no single verifiable definite history that's enforced by the rules.

The in-character history of Caine tossing curses around is a result of ancient fragments of firsthand accounts which may or may not be genuine and may or may not be accurate and the accounts of the very few and very enigmatic and untrustworthy types who were around at that point (all working their own agendas), all filtered through the biased perceptions of whatever character is subscribing to that story.

Too many storytellers seem to regard ambiguous setting information, presented as an in-character perspective for them to draw upon as being unalterable facts that must apply to every setting, every time, all the time without deviation, original thought or any alternative perspectives or explanations; in character or out.

Unholy Pilgrim:

Just drink from children.

Loxosceles:

Too many storytellers seem to regard ambiguous setting information, presented as an in-character perspective for them to draw upon as being unalterable facts that must apply to every setting, every time, all the time without deviation, original thought or any alternative perspectives or explanations; in character or out.

Just quoted this part but I agree with the whole text. I think you are right in your analises and as I stated in my post, I'm convinced "there is no canon reason for why each clan has it's weakness. I think there are various options and is left for the ST to pick which suits him/her better."