Changelings: What are they particularly good/bad at?

Atticus Sparrow:

This may run against the point of this thread, but in a straight Changeling game (no vamps, no werewolves, no mages--all supernatural effects are either fully-mortal mystics or pyschics or some form of fae), Changelings come out way ahead of mortal combatants. Period.

unless the mortals are packing Cold-Iron bullets.

Irrelevant unless the changeling is wearing fae-magic armour, which it negates. Otherwise iron has no adverse effect on changelings.

Blunt Vorpal:

Cleverest of Things:

If you make sure to jump into the Hedge through a doorway, archway, or mirror, in a place where your enemy won't see the gateway and follow. 

And how are you going to get to a doorway when you're being chased before the enemy follows you?   The gateway does stay open for a few turns, after all; its not a foolproof method of escape and possibly chase right after you.   Plus, the reactive nature of the Hedge will likely respond poorly to a scared 'ling forced to such desperate measures, and good luck finding a way back out from an unknown entrance. 

It's not as hard as it sounds.  Sure, you can't do it just anywhere.  But if you get outside, there are plenty of hidden alcoves, arches, windows, and doors.  The nearest bathroom, kitchen, or bedroom becomes a varitable hall of portals for a Changeling.  Even if an enemy knows to look for a Gateway into the Hedge (Which, by the way, is no where NEAR close to common knowledge), the likely hood of him figuring out which cabinet will lead him to an alternate dimension before the gateway closes is somewhat slim.  Of course, this does a changeling in the middle of an open field little to no good (Unless there is some other unusual gateway nearby).

ArqArturo:

Ophidimancer:

nothri:

In a combat situation, a changeling by himself is no stronger than a human. He has many inherent tricks, but none of them allow for higher endurance, faster healing, harder punches, or anything else of that nature.

Ogres punch harder, Wizened shoot better, Elementals are harder to kill.

I think he means that werewolves and vamps will pretty much kill you if they touch you.

He said that changelings are no better than humans in combat situations but doesn't account for the fact that three out of the six Seemings have inherent abilities that make them better in combat than a normal human with the same stats.  Elementals can get extra health levels, Ogres can add dice to Strength or Brawl dice pool with Glamour, and Wizened can get 9 agains with Dexterity dice pools as well as add their Wyrd to their Dodge scores.  That's not even counting any Kith blessings, it's the the inherent power of the Seeming.

Not to mention some of the Contracts, such as Stone, which will put your opponents in a world of hurt, or Seperation, which is the ultimate in escape-artistry and dodging.

When I said inherent, I was examining the magic specifically available to all changelings, not the individual powers specific changelings can pick up with kith or Seeming. I thought at the time it would go without saying that individual changelings are better at fighting than other types of changelings, since this has been true of every WOD game since Vampire: The Requiem. I was saying that, unlike a vampire, the abilities that a changeling can take for granted having- the pledges, the dreamshaping, kenning, opening gates into the hedge- the application of these things in combat is less immediately useful than, say, a vampire's ability to take bashing damage from bullets or a werewolf's ability to turn into a hulking monstrosity. There are niches in a changeling's nature that allow for better combat skills than other supernaturals, yes, just as there are niches for other supernaturals, but these can't be made as blanket statements for the overall changeling population.

Blunt Vorpal:

Fact remains:  Escape into the Hedge is still a lousy method of escape.

This conversation is breaking down. I think at this point facts are giving way to individual play styles, ST choices, and just plain matters of opinion. A lot about this scenario depends on how the ST wants to depict the Hedge. To use an extreme, a Hedge in which danger waits around every turn and one is lucky to survive even quick trips has different consequences of going into a hedge out of Alice in Wonderland in which the goblins are polite or indifferent but otherwordly and more than a little unhinged. Using this tactic in the former would be paramount to suicide, using it in the latter might much more reasonably lead to help or a hiding place.

I can accept that in some situations it might indeed be a lousy tactic, but I don't believe that every, or even most situations are going to be made worse by employing. As I said already, the Hedge has its dangers, but the changelings are going to know those dangers. There are ways to shape, hide in, and fight back with the hedge that aren't there in the mortal world. There are goblin fruits to heal wounds and restore glamour. There are paths to lose pursuers, allies to seek out, markets to get lost in. There are dangers, oh yes there are dangers. But its the dangers the changeling has the opportunity to understand and her opponents might not. In other words, whatever threats she faces here, they also face, but the allies and magic she can call upon here? Those are going to be solely hers to use against her opponents. Home field advantage.

nothri:

There are niches in a changeling's nature that allow for better combat skills than other supernaturals, yes, just as there are niches for other supernaturals, but these can't be made as blanket statements for the overall changeling population.

They  can't be made as blanket statements for the other supernatural populations though.

Sure, all vampires can buff physicals and take bashing from guns.  That doesn't mean they are all good in a fight.  It just means guns are a bad choice on them.  A mortal with a 2L knife will beat an unarmed vampire (assuming same basic stats) fairly easily if the vampire only uses innate powers.  The mortal will either be doing lethal to the vampire's bashing and equal dice, or have +2 dice but have to deal with healing.  The odds generally favor the mortal though.

A werewolf might fair far better in that situation, but unless they're going to whip out Lunacy (which is not a good thing for them to be doing, at all) they're still in trouble against a mortal with a gun and similar stats.

Even with the clear innate bonuses vampires and werewolves get, they're are just as prone to needing to be made to take advantage of niches to be good at them.  Even with combat.

nothri:

But its the dangers the changeling has the opportunity to understand and her opponents might not

But this breaks down against the essential point of bringing up the Hedge in the first place.

It is not a 'get out of jail free card' for a Lost in trouble.  You might not need Contracts or powers to use it, but actually making use of the Hedge in a fashion that helps you escape from danger is not inherent to changelings.  It takes learning, practice and understanding of the Hedge to make good use of it.

The Hedge is a potent tool for the changelings that master it.  But for a fresh changeling still new to freedom, this tactic is likely far more dangerous than whatever they're fleeing from.

Zeev:

The Hedge is a potent tool for the changelings that master it.  But for a fresh changeling still new to freedom, this tactic is likely far more dangerous than whatever they're fleeing from.

That point I will certainly concede.

I think, Zeev, something of an apology is in order here. Earlier I was reading some of your comments more negatively than I think they were intended, and my responses back were more blunt and snippy than they should have been. Sorry about that.

No worries.

Regarding changeling "innate abilities" and their combat usefulness - changelings who are prepared have equal or better innate combat powers than vampires do, while if they aren't prepared the vampires have the edge.

Vampires can spend 1 Vitae per turn to either get +2 dice to a Physical Attribute, or heal one damage.

Changelings can swear pledges for +1 die permanently to their best attack pool, give themselves combat Merits that they don't pay XP for, and stock up on goblin fruits to heal damage. The pledge and combat bonuses have a good chance of surpassing the vampire's, while not costing Glamour every action (leaving the changeling free to spend his on actual powers, unlike the vampire), and the hedge fruits mean that the changeling can pause to heal himself almost as well as the vampire can.

On top of that, the vampiric start with one extra inherent bonus - their bonus Attribute dot. Changelings start with two inherent bonuses (Kith and Seeming), some of which are combat-related, as well as a free Specialty in Athletics, Brawl, or Stealth.


As far as the Hedge goes - it is going to depend a lot on the local freehold, in addition to other things. If you have a smaller, more mortal-focused freehold, the local Hedge is going to be terrifyingly dangerous. If, on the other hand, you have a larger or more focused freehold, chances are that you can walk the Hedge pretty safely as long as you don't go far from the mortal world. Case in point - in the original Changeling quickstart game, the fact that Miami's Hedge had gotten dangerous enough for the players to be attacked was considered a fairly big deal.

Friv Yeti:

Vampires can spend 1 Vitae per turn to either get +2 dice to a Physical Attribute, or heal one damage.

Nitpick:

+2 to a physical dice pool for the turn, not the Attribute itself.
Heal 1 L or 2 B.

Another benefit that changelings can have in surprise or emergency situations are Goblin Vows/Pledges.  They give a huge amount of flexability as long as you are willing to pay the price later.

A Changeling could spend the first few minutes of a non-ambush type combat to do a pre-combat monologue.  While it would take clever wording, and hope that the Vampire accidentally agrees to the vow (Trapping him unwittingly), you could set the combat up so that you gain a very useful combat bonus (Like Boxing or Kung Fu), and he gets a fairly useless one (Striking Looks, as his combat becomes a beautiful display to onlookers) as well as a fairly harsh penality (Death is my favorite) for some little detail that he would easily overlook.  Especially if he'd never found out just how mean Changelings can be with their pledges.