Werewolf Superheroes

One of the biggest complaints about the Werewolf line, not just Forsaken but also Apocalypse was that unlike playing monsters, your Gaoru or Forsaken was just a furry superhero and that the game line focuses too much on "wrong and right" and protecting humanity.

Now, while I do add this on the list of reasons I dont like Apocalypse, I don't see it as much in Forsaken. When reading all the material I didnt get wrapped up in a sense of justice, like being a werewolf was all about slaying spiritual intruders to protect our families and friends. I got a dread duty, something that werewolves are compelled to do. A fight for survival. A bloody truce that would only last in your last exhales after destroying a large enemy, before you realized that your fight was for not. Werewolves are not really superheroes, they are often petty and selfish.

Now, I am not confused. I know in the books it states many times that Forsaken have taken up their fathers mantle to patrol the physical and spiritual realms. They do protect humanity in a sense, as well as try to limit malicious spirits influence.

So let me know your thoughts--is Werewolf too much of a "Superhero" game about killin' the baddies? Using awesome powers to be saviors? Or does your game veer more towards a fight for survival with little to no thought about protecting humanity?

claire_miller:

So let me know your thoughts--is Werewolf too much of a "Superhero" game about killin' the baddies?

I don't see it.  From what I've read, Forsaken is about keeping your territory safe, and policing spirits is almost--not quite, but almost--a side effect.  And since killing humans is part and parcel of the territory, I deny anyone who calls the game superheroic.

In my games the story is about survival and duty, and humanity is protected as a result in some cases (they are your breeding stock, they're all over the place so spirits are more likely to try riding a person than a deer by sheer numbers) but protecting people is not the focus.

And as for killing baddies, from my experience you die extraordinarily quickly in this version if you try to do any of the furry superhero tricks people would do in Apocalypse.  I think this version of WoD is too brutal for that, and your 'awesome' powers aren't as awesome as they once were.

I DO think that Forsaken has much more of a 'purpose' in it's structure as opposed to something like Vampire, in which your goal is to continue to exist, but I actually like that structure. 

I don't agree with all the superhero charges getting pressed against the Werewolf line, it just pops up in a lot of the other forums, especially when people are comparing/ranking games, people who have something "negative" to say about Werewolf always say that it's too preachy or too much about saving the day.

claire_miller:

I don't agree with all the superhero charges getting pressed against the Werewolf line, it just pops up in a lot of the other forums, especially when people are comparing/ranking games, people who have something "negative" to say about Werewolf always say that it's too preachy or too much about saving the day.

Personally, I see this often coming from people that seem to not get that WtA and WtF are different games.

Forsaken really doesn't have this particular flaw, which Apocalypse really did.  It has other flaws of course, but if you really read the WtF books, I can't imagine how you'd get 'preachy' and 'about saving the day' in it.  I guess it could be hiding somewhere between, 'everyone hates you,' and 'this hate is even somewhat justified, since you can snap and turn into a snarling furry ball of death if you lose your cool.'

claire_miller:

People who have something "negative" to say about Werewolf always say that it's too preachy or too
much about saving the day.

I have to accuse these people of deliberately missing the point.  "You stay on your side and I'll stay on my side, because that's the way my pappy did it; and if you cross this line I will beat your ass flat and send you cryin home to mama" is much more the point than "I'll always be there when you need me!  Up!  Up and away!" is.

I wonder if it's because Vampire didn't seem to actually change all that much, and Mage seemed to get cleaned up but essentially stay the same (though never really played much of the first Mage, the 'make up your own power' system was a disaster in my group) - then they make the assumption that Werewolf is just the same as it was without giving it a second look.  Or maybe it's because Werewolf's origin stories seem to have the heaviest impact on the game's direction.

Or it could be as JimB says people could be deliberately ignorning it.

It could be that your right and JimB are right at the same time.  Vampire actually changed a whole lot (and Mage honestly underwent the biggest changes but it doesn't relate to my point), but they kept a "comfort zone" in it through familiar terms and concepts that some veteran Masquerade players didn't see a difference and just thought it was "toned down" and "nerfed" and "didn't have my favorite clan it it."  Then in the months leading up to Werewolf: the Forsaken's release they were telling all their werewolf friends "don't bother its the same game just nerfed to hell" thus the rumors spread that they were all the same and so it was still just "Super-Heroes with Fur"

I've noticed over the last 5 years that word-of-mouth seems to have a large effect on how the community views various RPGs so it's conceviable that a bunch  of people who never even bought or read the Forsaken book has just continued to perpetuate the myth.

Deimos_Masque:

Masquerade players didn't see a difference and just thought it was "toned down" and "nerfed" and "didn't have my favorite clan it it."  Then in the months leading up to Werewolf: the Forsaken's release they were telling all their werewolf friends "don't bother its the same game just nerfed to hell" thus the rumors spread that they were all the same and so it was still just "Super-Heroes with Fur"

You guys are pointing out excellent reasons for why this misperception happened. Either refusing to see the changes, not reading the material at all or thinking Forsaken is a watered down version of the same game. Which, a lot of fans of oWoD think that they got their brains spattered across the wall with the nerf bat. 

I know I'm not really contributing to the conversation at all. :)

This is both a "it's all about what parts of the setting you're focusing on" and a personal taste thing. It's very easy to see the Forsaken as (flawed) heroes (like Werewolf developer Ethan Skemp does it here). It's just as easy to completely de-emphasize these parts and play up the whole werewolf packs as criminal gangs thing, in which the Forsaken are looking out for themselves first and foremost and don't give a fig about everyone else.

It all depends on what you want from your game.

So, yeah. The people who say that you can do epic heroes beating the bad guys and saving the day with Werewolf: the Forsaken are right. The people who insist that Werewolf is about playing mean bastard monsters without respect for anything but their own selves are right, too. Werewolf: the Forsaken wouldn't be this really great game if it wasn't toolboxy and customizable and all that.

The real problem starts once people show up and deny the flexibility and customizability (is that even a word? Sorry. Can I play the "English not my first language" card again?) of the game. Once you decide your view of the game is the only valid one and once you refuse to accept the validity of other play styles, well, that's a problem. Werewolf would be a lesser game if it could do ONLY heroic PCs or ONLY bastard PCs.

I never got the "Garou as superheroes" thing that people complained about. I think most of the people who said that were fans of other WoD games, and only saw the crazy combat stuff in Apocalypse. My view of Apocalypse wasn't "We save huminity and the world" but more "We're screwed regardless, so I'm going to fight until my dying breath to make my family as safe as I can". It was actually all very tragic. Much more then Vampire in my opinion. The Garou were fighting a war they knew they had very little chance of winning, but they still fought.

A LOT of the "Furry Superfriends" crap came from the 1st ed and early 2nd Ed stuff, when.. frankyl.. that's what the game was. But by the end of 2nd Ed and all through the Revised era, that was pretty much gone.

Forsaken is a whole different can of worms. Where as Apocalpyse had you fighting a War on a cosmological scale, Forsaken has you focusing on the few square miles you call home. There is no "World threatening force" to deal with. There are bad things out there sure, but until they come knocking at your door step, it's not your problem.

And again, the Forsaken aren't out to save humanity, in fact, other then the people you actually KNOW, the rest can go screw themselves. Your job is to keep humanity out of the Shadow's business, and the Shadow out of Humanities business. How you go about that is completely up to you.

I think what gets people is that there is a clearly defined antagonism in Forsaken. In Vampire, it's all politics, you simply.. EXIST.. there's no real reason for it. Mage.. there's a bit more, but it really still a matter of personal opinion. Some mages don't ever do anything beyond look for more tid bits and spells. Prometheans only strive to affect themselves.. and Changelings are just trying to live their lives. However, the Forsaken exist for a PURPOSE, regrdless of whether or not the individual actually fulfills that purpose.

MisterShifter:

I never got the "Garou as superheroes" thing that people complained about.

To me, the biggest source of this is that you have a supreme deity actively available to tell you that you were right.  It cuts out the 'black and grey morality' of most of the WOD.  As well, a lot of the 'oh what a monster I have become' aspects were fairly de-emphasized in the game.  The WtA rules make it very easy to completely circumvent the parts of being a werewolf that involve freaking out and killing innocents, and having normal folks scared of you for little reason they understand.  It also really played into the 90s 'anti-hero' (specifically eco-terrorist) mindset.  Superheroes aren't all Superman.  The Hulk is a superhero too.

Also there is the fact that in the second edition book, every werewolf has the Wolverine haircut.

Christian A:

So, yeah. The people who say that you can do epic heroes beating the bad guys and saving the day with Werewolf: the Forsaken are right. The people who insist that Werewolf is about playing mean bastard monsters without respect for anything but their own selves are right, too. Werewolf: the Forsaken wouldn't be this really great game if it wasn't toolboxy and customizable and all that.