Werewolf Superheroes

Zeev:

To me, the biggest source of this is that you have a supreme deity actively available to tell you that you were right. 

On some issues.  The War of Rage?  Not so much.  That was cultural bias instead.

claire_miller:

I just read in the core book, "...there's nothing safe or comfortable about being a werewolf. Without reminders of the primal beast at the core of the werewolf's soul, players may grow jaded and treat their character as essentially superheroes with a limited set of superheroes. [This] approach does not do the werewolf condition justice."  In Blood of the Wolf they even chastise players for thinking their character is noble, reminding them that they are indeed monsters.

To be fair, there's a lot of fluff that gives the idea that they're making the noble sacrifice.   "We're doing the right thing keeping the Shadow and Material separate, despite everyone hating us for it.   We have honorable codes."   Its what the werewolves tell themselves in-game.    And its very easy to blur that line, especially given that the "necessary killing of humans" rarely comes up and the temptation to eat a human is pretty low in a large number of games.   How often do your PCs abuse their wolf-blooded relatives, like its suggested that werewolves do?

Blunt Vorpal:

To be fair, there's a lot of fluff that gives the idea that they're making the noble sacrifice.  

Which is also kinda confirmed by Ethan Skemp's LJ entry on the topic (see link in my post above).

Blunt Vorpal:

And its very easy to blur that line, especially given that the "necessary killing of humans" rarely comes up and the temptation to eat a human is pretty low in a large number of games. 

Interesting, but really not true as far as the games I've seen are concerned.

I'm not sure Monster vs.Noble Savage is a fight that needs to exist.  Why can't werewolves be both?  I mean, the point of Requiem is that vampires are monsters struggling with hard choices; why doesn't that theme apply to werewolves too?

JimB:

I'm not sure Monster vs.Noble Savage is a fight that needs to exist.  Why can't werewolves be both?

My point exactly, but then, I said so before.

Christian A:

Interesting, but really not true as far as the games I've seen are concerned.

*shrugs* The ones I've seen are.   To each his own, I guess.

Zeev:

MisterShifter:

I never got the "Garou as superheroes" thing that people complained about.

To me, the biggest source of this is that you have a supreme deity actively available to tell you that you were right.  It cuts out the 'black and grey morality' of most of the WOD.

That, and the fact that Apocalypse features a setting where ultimately everyone knows the battle is already lost, which is a classic tragic hero story trope - "I know the world will eventually succumb but I'll still die standing for what's right".

The irony of it all is that this feature is exactly what makes the setting more interesting than the average modern heroish story - sacrifice really is a part of the experience. Even if Apocalypse featured the most heroic character types of both WoD incarnations, it wasn't cheesy. Just misguided and preachy about the whole environmental concerns, but that's another topic.

In a sense Forsaken isn't really too far from the mark, too. The Forsaken do fight what seems to be an unending battle, though the end result of losing it may not really be apocalyptic. Which is probably why those who have actually read it don't see it as a heroish game, while the casual gamers and the uninformed mix it up with its previous incarnations. There's a little bit of truth to both approaches, and in this Christian is right.

Which doesn't make the game any worse, I must add. Careful development of concepts and ideas is 90% of it all, and I think that's where Forsaken excels.

Your over thinking it. Look at it from a simpler point of view.

Can you be a bit more clear about who you're addressing and what exactly is being overcomplicated?

What is wrong with Werewolves having a purpose?  Gaia gave them a job to do and they have to do it.  They can continue to live their lives, but protecting Gaia and bringing balance to the Triat is who they are.

It isn't about being a superhero, its about duty, responsibility, and sacrifice. 

WolfMan86:

What is wrong with Werewolves having a purpose?

It's the WOD and your source of purpose should be questionable, not a divinely good entity.

Of course, the Forsaken have a purpose and a duty as well, but there's is far more tenuous and ill-defined.

WolfMan86:

It isn't about being a superhero, its about duty, responsibility, and sacrifice. 

The problem is that those aren't mutually exclusive.  The accusations of 'superhero' aren't avoided by pointing this out.

WolfMan86:

It isn't about being a superhero, its about duty, responsibility, and sacrifice. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but duty, responsibility, and sacrifice are the traits of a hero, are they not?   It seems like you're saying that Werewolf is about heroes, but you're just not allowed to use the word "superhero."  

I mean, Iron Age heroes are pretty messed up individuals that are psychological driven to "fight crime."   They pretty much have to be unstable in order to wear capes and costumes instead of just joining the police force like regular folk - Batman, Punisher, etc.   Werewolf reminds me a lot of this kind of hero - they have a psychological / spiritual / instinctual drive to protect their territory. 

Everyone has duties and obligations.

Is a werewolf's battle to territory and spiritual balance any more heroic than a vampires struggle towards their duties to Prince, Covenant and blood?  I don't think so.

I think part of it is that the 'good' side of the werewolf game is a bit more obvious than the bad side.  People don't think about how werewolves often go about keeping things the way they seem fit:  by hunting down and eliminating any threats.  Humans?  They can die if need be, no big deal, there are more.  Spirits?  If they don't like it, they can leave or get chomped on.  Etc.  Werewolves claim territory by force and violence.  Which can seem heroic if they're on your side.  But it's pretty monstrous if you're on the receiving end.

Werewolves cull the herds, be them spirits, sharta, mortals, vampires, when they mess with the balance. They overkill traitors among themselves when they are discovered, even if its a sin to do it. Some werewolves choose to be executioners. Look at the many lodges with martial qualities (Lodge of Preators on Shadows of the UK, Lodge of Wrath, Lodge of Wendigo) being a paragon of harmony doesnt means you are a superhero, in the romantic sense, you can be as dickish as any character from Watchmen.