Werewolf Superheroes

Off the top of my head, Wolverine, Luke Cage, Cable, Deadpool (though he barely counts), Havok, Cyclops, Venom (Brock not Gagan), Punisher, Hulk, Spider-Woman, Captain America (both Steve and Bucky), Silver Surfer, Super Man, Nightwing (intentionally killed the Joker during Joker's Last Laugh), Two-Face (yes he's been a hero before and killed when he was), Red Robin (Jason Todd) Ghost Rider, X-23, Warpath, Archangel, Caliban, Feral, Elixer, and on and on have killed for what they felt was "good reasons."  Yes some of this list lamented the fact that it was necessary (Nightwing even plunged into depression realizing that he had made the Joker "win" by killing him.)

To say a Superhero never kills is a very Golden Age trope that didn't even hold to be always true in the Golden Age (heck Batman intentionally killed more people in the Golden Age then he's ever been credited for in the Silver and Modern Age.)  Honestly the "Age of Marvels" with the introduction of Spider-Man, Hulk, Iron Man, The X-Men and the Fanatastic Four was built around the concept that a flawed hero was more interesting than the flawless hero (this was lampooned nicely in the SomeRandomGuy you tube videos.)

To say they aren't superheroes because they kill for their cause is really a short sighted sort of definition that makes it so that many modern superheroes can't even be considered as such.

WolfMan86:

With regards to the topic, I gave my opinion.  And my opinion is that I don't see the Garou in WtA as superheroes.

Yes, but the problem remains that the fashion in which you've expressed your opinion doesn't really add anything to the conversation, because it's a shallow statement.  If you can't talk about the Garou vs. superheroes using the more broad definitions that have more cultural significance, then all you are going to manage to say is, "Garou aren't superheroes because I said so."

Deimos_Masque:

To say they aren't superheroes because they kill for their cause is really a short sighted sort of definition that makes it so that many modern superheroes can't even be considered as such.

I honestly get the feeling that Wolfie is being deliberately obtuse in his definitions.  Rather than pointing out the ways the Garou aren't like superheroes, he defines the word "superhero" so it can't apply to Garou, and just incidentally can't apply to any of the superheroes he holds up as standards of his own definition.

WolfMan86:

Zeev:

WolfMan86:

What is wrong with Werewolves having a purpose?

It's the WOD and your source of purpose should be questionable, not a divinely good entity.

Of course, the Forsaken have a purpose and a duty as well, but there's is far more tenuous and ill-defined.

WolfMan86:

It isn't about being a superhero, its about duty, responsibility, and sacrifice. 

The problem is that those aren't mutually exclusive.  The accusations of 'superhero' aren't avoided by pointing this out.

I'm talking about OWOD.  I don't see the Garou as superheroes.  They don't wear capes and they're not admired by society. 

The Garou aren't super heroes to me.

the hulk doesnt wear a cape and isnt admired by society.

Come to think of it very few superheros wear capes anymore.

The majority of them don't really.

Whatever makes you guys feel better. 

i honestly view WtA as captain planet on roids and PCP but hey i got my opinion, you have yours im not going to trash yours because that is simply disrespectful

And I don't think any of us are trying to trash WolfMan's opinion.  It's more like we are trying to more clearly understand it.  I personally don't see either Werewolf game as a "Furry Superhero" game but I can see how others can.  Its all in presentation too.

With no preconceptions consider this description:

"So in this game you play a bunch of people will all these special powers, you can change your shape, are giving magical powers from spirits and your role in the game world is to police the human and spirit worlds and to use your new found powers to make sure no harm comes to either world."

Deimos_Masque:

And I don't think any of us are trying to trash WolfMan's opinion.  It's more like we are trying to more clearly understand it.  I personally don't see either Werewolf game as a "Furry Superhero" game but I can see how others can.  Its all in presentation too.

With no preconceptions consider this description:

"So in this game you play a bunch of people will all these special powers, you can change your shape, are giving magical powers from spirits and your role in the game world is to police the human and spirit worlds and to use your new found powers to make sure no harm comes to either world."

sorry if my post sounded accusatory i was simply stating my views and that i was going to refuse to bash him for his.  and i agree, it does boil down to presentation and interpretation.  all the STs ive had for WtA have presented the game in a "there is pollution and it is from  <insert company name here> who are corrupted by the wyrm.  then the BSDs will come and help them and we will kill all of them and then celebrate. 2 weeks later rinse repeat.  i didn't have very creative STs

The interesting part is that WolfMan admitted that he thinks that werewolves are a kind of hero, just not "super".    I wonder how many people that hate the "Werewolves are superheroes" line actually just have an aversion to the word "superhero" and the whole Boy Scout attitude that the... umm... non-comic-readers associate with the term?

What's the response if one asks "Are werewolves just heroes?"

No difference, of course. The Forsaken can be heroes. They don't have to be.

Christian A:

No difference, of course. The Forsaken can be heroes. They don't have to be.

In games that I run I require my players to answer a series of questions about their characters, and several of them have to do with the Oath of the Moon, other duty and law type issues, and quite frankly if they even believe in the Father Wolf myth.  I do this because I want my players to think long and hard about how their characters feel about these cultural "truths," and I don't want them to feel that these myths as presented in Forsaken are absolute, gospel truth.  I want to leave these decisions to the players to decide for their characters.  Some believe it, others don't.  Same with NPCs.

At its basest level I think Forsaken is about pack and survival.  The Oath of the Moon and the duties it entails are, for the most part, harmonious with that.  You can interpret the Oath and duty cynically as a way Uratha have codified a set of laws that help to prevent moral and spiritual degeneration and give justification for what they would do in any case.

I've had many characters in my games, and have created many characters for other people's games, that don't really buy into the whole Father Wolf story and follow the Oath (or select parts of the Oath) only when its convenient.  They may believe they have duties, but not to some ancient gods.  Their duty is to pack and packmate.  They hunt not because the Moon said they should, but because if they don't their territory will suffer and their pack will suffer.

Other characters follow the Oath more rigidly, and believe in their hearts that Father Wolf was real and that they are carrying out his legacy.  But in my experience these more zealous characters are less common.  In the end werewolves do what they do for very practical reasons, and I wonder if you remove the Oath altogether if packs would change their behavior much.  In my experience, not really.

So I'm not sure if that makes Forsaken heroic.  Certainly I don't think they are by default.  Its very much up to the ST and the players as far as how much they want to play up what could be the more heroic nature of the game.  On the other hand, I think werewolves should always be monstrous, no matter how heroic you try to make them.  In the end, they are still monsters.

Yeled:

So I'm not sure if that makes Forsaken heroic.  Certainly I don't think they are by default. 

Ethan Skemp would probably disagree. I believe I've linked to his LJ entry on the topic upthreads.

Yeled:

Its very much up to the ST and the players as far as how much they want to play up what could be the more heroic nature of the game. 

Ding! Winner.

Christian A:

Yeled:

So I'm not sure if that makes Forsaken heroic.  Certainly I don't think they are by default. 

Ethan Skemp would probably disagree. I believe I've linked to his LJ entry on the topic upthreads.

I for one think Ethan plays up the heroic elements just a tad more than I like.  A simple, minor de-emphasizing of a couple elements (like making the Oath a bit more grey) and emphasizing duty to pack makes it just about perfect as far as I'm concerned.