Redford_Blade:OWoD games were built around playing characters with an aspect of humanity.
Redford_Blade: I think of it as a conscious choice by the developers, since most people wouldn't know how to role-play ancient, inhuman beings of cosmic power, but could certainly present such a being when given human limits.
DICE:Try using Devils Due then. Sounds more like what you are after.
Possessed:She found the concept behind DtF highly offencive to her beliefs, and she is not a fervent believer at all, while playing actual demons she has no problem with. The whole thought about them being all Angels while at the same time forging Pacts for human Faith was offensive to her, ironically she likely wouldn't have had a problem with it if they had been portrayed as fiendish demons doing the same. I am hardly offended by anything conserning religion so I have hard time seeing her problem with this but it is undeniably there. She has had no problems with including Nephandi in a chronicle or their masters and she has even played in a game where I portrayed a Wyrm cult operating under somewhat christian guise having their Holy father as Wyrm since Wyrm is also divided into a holy trinity etc. Nor is she offended by games like In Nomine, Exalted's Abyssals and Infernals or practically any other RPG I've thrown at her. So this naturally shows me that they missed something with DtF.
Possessed: It would be hard to rp such a being correctly but if something provides a challenge to imagine does not equal it couldn't be done. It would be interesting. The system they ended up with has the admittedly interesting tangles with the mortal side trying not to be overwhelmed by the "demonic" side but still unless you are into heavy torment game you cant really go that Demonic since they basically have Humanity trait. And if you do go Demonic with high Torment you cant go classic Temptress Devil way because you do look and act monstrous and your powers are limited to only purely destructive aspects. It suits other demon concepts but excludes others. So like I said it's good game with interesting hooks but I don't find it particularly demonic especially as for example some Tzimisce can be far more like demon lords than Demons themselves. So while I find the game enjoyable as it is I see it as something portraying the Fallen still as Angels that try, for the most part, to struggle against their Torment all the while trying to balance a mortal life with this all. I was hoping the game would have been more about Demons not misunderstood Angels. This aspect of the game has actually unfortunately alienated one of my friend who both plays and ST's from DtF so completely that I can hardly ever ST it since she is a core member of my gaming group and she also refuses to ST it usually. She found the concept behind DtF highly offencive to her beliefs, and she is not a fervent believer at all, while playing actual demons she has no problem with. The whole thought about them being all Angels while at the same time forging Pacts for human Faith was offensive to her, ironically she likely wouldn't have had a problem with it if they had been portrayed as fiendish demons doing the same. I am hardly offended by anything conserning religion so I have hard time seeing her problem with this but it is undeniably there. She has had no problems with including Nephandi in a chronicle or their masters and she has even played in a game where I portrayed a Wyrm cult operating under somewhat christian guise having their Holy father as Wyrm since Wyrm is also divided into a holy trinity etc. Nor is she offended by games like In Nomine, Exalted's Abyssals and Infernals or practically any other RPG I've thrown at her. So this naturally shows me that they missed something with DtF.
Stix:Your friend either has some misconceptions about the game or is disturbingly mentally imbalanced.
Super-G:So while your grandiose idea of full scale Hell Demons may be fun for an hour or two, the complexity of moral issues and social interactions, is what keeps a game like Demon interesting not only for GMs but for the players who are creating such complex beings.
Possessed:First of all I'm quite aware of the origins of the Fallen host since I have used way too much of my spare time reading about different religions and their differences etc. That misses the point all together.
Possessed:There is quite a bit of gray area avaivable without a game stat like Torment or humanity to regulate your gaming. Mage has none of these and is full of the shades of gray. Even Werewolf is gray area despite the Garou propaganda about the Wyrm. I personally dont see even Wyrm as evil so why should I think that a demon acting like that is black and white evil as with Torment 10. Tzimisce are more evil than most Demons unless they have Torment 10 or at least close to it without coming out of the gray area so why would having demonic demons make things black and white?
Possessed:Succubus, and Incubus to be equal for both sexes, are actually like you said obviously demonic but they do their seducing under the cover of illusion of beauty or through dreams of their victims. At high Torment this can get hard to achieve through lores and apocalyptic form is straight out. Yes mortals can seduce mortals naturally. But what I meant was not actually succubi but rather something like how the devil is often portrayed. This kinda person should be quite a bit more manipulative and charismatic than humanly possible and be able to use his considerable powers to achieve non-destructive ends too when it benefits him.
Possessed: I resent this kind of commentary to claim your vision absolute and if others do not comply they are mentally imbalanced. Quite rude and impolite. I said nothing of the sort and nothing offensive. If your friend enjoys portraying irredeemable, baby-raping evil but rejects a character who might have a redeeming feature (the interpretation with which I was left after reading your post), that's a fucked-up person who should get help for their problems. Based on your prior comments, I think you misinterpreted the game. That's all. Possessed:Much of the offence is about how these Angels are portrayed. Low torment means they should be quite good and nice and all and yet they still must, even the redeemers, make pacts for souls of humanity to survive. If they would be portrayed as Fallen Angels, or in other words Demons, not Angels who are a tad lost and trying hard, for both mechanical and other reasons, to not succumb to their demonic side it wouldn't be a problem cause thats just what is expected of demons. Like said she has no trouble with other games that portray demons even as player characters like In Nomine and Armageddon. I would also like to note again that this is not my opinion so my explanation of it may be somewhat limited by my understanding, or lack off, of it. Understood. That said, this is a blatant misunderstanding. Pacts and thralls are 100% optional -- demons need faith to use their most powerful lores, but they don't starve to death without it. A demon fighting to become something truer to its origins might reap faith by deeds if it has to -- laying hands on a wound and sealing it before the dying person's eyes, protecting an innocent soul from the depredations of the wicked, any number of genuinely angelic things. A low-Torment character could get away with a pact as a way to elevate a valued human being. As long as he doesn't do any ravaging, there's nothing morally wrong with that. Possessed:My issue with the game is that demons do not feel like demonic nor Fallen but just angelic unless you somehow end up in the deep end of Torment. Without internal conflict, it'd be a really shitty World of Darkness game.
Possessed:Much of the offence is about how these Angels are portrayed. Low torment means they should be quite good and nice and all and yet they still must, even the redeemers, make pacts for souls of humanity to survive. If they would be portrayed as Fallen Angels, or in other words Demons, not Angels who are a tad lost and trying hard, for both mechanical and other reasons, to not succumb to their demonic side it wouldn't be a problem cause thats just what is expected of demons. Like said she has no trouble with other games that portray demons even as player characters like In Nomine and Armageddon. I would also like to note again that this is not my opinion so my explanation of it may be somewhat limited by my understanding, or lack off, of it.
Possessed:My issue with the game is that demons do not feel like demonic nor Fallen but just angelic unless you somehow end up in the deep end of Torment.
Stix: If demons were once angels, and the Most-High is a being capable of infinite forgiveness, why shouldn't they be able to choose to be something better than they were? What makes that a lame idea?
Stix:If your friend enjoys portraying irredeemable, baby-raping evil but rejects a character who might have a redeeming feature (the interpretation with which I was left after reading your post), that's a fucked-up person who should get help for their problems.
Stix:The Wyrm is clearly off the black-and-white scale evil. It's the embodiment of it, in fact.
Stix:Without internal conflict, it'd be a really shitty World of Darkness game.
Hod. It wouldnt be any more the "Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeviiiiiiiiiil rpg" than KoTE is when playing a Devil Tiger. Demonic behaviour has it's reasons too. That they are offered this "second chance" on a silver platter is the problem. No they havent actually heard from God or even know if He is still around but that isnt the point. They get a free ride to redemption as currently represented even if they couldnt actually ever be able to rid that last point of Torment. I already covered that earlier in this post though.
Yes the game calls them Fallen and fails to actually make them fallen. They already start more angelic than demonic. The main theme seems to be Redemption, sespite all "fist rasied to heaven" talk in the back cover. Yes they are angels that have been punished for trying to help humans. Yes they went a tad overboard during the War but hey thats war, and now they get a shine new "second chance". Falling should be a clear decision that has altered what you are in a profound way. The reason for the originall Fall being misguided love is all fine, afterall good intensions are what paves the way to hell, but after the fatefull desicion there should be no easy way back to being an Angel. Their nature has changed, from the perfection they were into a perversion of what they were possessing people shouldnt help if something it should make things worse. But it seems my vision of demonic beings is quite different from you. Which leaves as in disagreement. Which is fine. I just want to point out that there is no such a thing as black and white it's all matter of perception. Another point I'm surprised that I have to make is that you cant and shouldnt try to diagnose people through an internet post, to claim someone to be mentally imbalanced and that they should be incarcerated is just bad form. To Stix, I enjoy the occasional dive into the deep end, I like playing Nephandi which sometimes does ionvolve quite evil things. Same thing wit hthe BSD's. They are cathartic experiences. Does this make me mentally imbalanced? If it does it would surprise a whole lot of people since to do the work I do one must go through a psych evaluation and during my life I've gone through a few extra because the army also makes a few of those mandatorily from everyone. And I can pretty happily say that I'm quite sane thank you.
DICE:I'm sorry to get into this but I think the two of you would be best to stop answering each other. You both are just feeding the other.
Possessed:I have never argued that redemption shouldnt be a viable goal for a demon how ever futile it might be. But it should be hard, it should be more than trying to be nice and good and it sure as hell shouldnt give you more power than you had before. Different kind of power, yes. More versality that includes everything you were capable of before, no. Redemption should be something for the rare few who are willing to sacrifice their power and even themselves for it. It shouldnt be that a starting character is allready half way there if he would choose that road.
Possessed:She can handle playing demonic characters and has no trouble playing them in games where they are represented as actually demonic since even in those games, as a no great surprise, they act in ways humans would consider "evil" for a reason. Wheter that reason is to weaken their enemies or gain support for their own cause or make earth a little more like hell there is always a reason.
Possessed:It's not just being evil for evils sake it's about achieving certain goals that can only be achieved, or which can most efficiently be achieved, by doing "evil" things.
Possessed:So Wyrm != Evil.
Possessed:Mage does the strugle of power and responcibility quite well without a trait to specifically governing their behaviour. I also gave the Devil Tigers as an example of well made devil concept. They still struggle with their Po for ever balancing between "evil" with a purpose and "evil" without purpose. They are not ravaging mosnters except when the need arises, they are evil becasue they are devils as ordained by heaven and seek to fulfill their purpose as such.
Possessed:That they are offered this "second chance" on a silver platter is the problem. No they havent actually heard from God or even know if He is still around but that isnt the point. They get a free ride to redemption as currently represented even if they couldnt actually ever be able to rid that last point of Torment.
Possessed:Yes the game calls them Fallen and fails to actually make them fallen. They already start more angelic than demonic. The main theme seems to be Redemption, sespite all "fist rasied to heaven" talk in the back cover. Yes they are angels that have been punished for trying to help humans. Yes they went a tad overboard during the War but hey thats war, and now they get a shine new "second chance". Falling should be a clear decision that has altered what you are in a profound way. The reason for the originall Fall being misguided love is all fine, afterall good intensions are what paves the way to hell, but after the fatefull desicion there should be no easy way back to being an Angel. Their nature has changed, from the perfection they were into a perversion of what they were possessing people shouldnt help if something it should make things worse.
Possessed:Another point I'm surprised that I have to make is that you cant and shouldnt try to diagnose people through an internet post, to claim someone to be mentally imbalanced and that they should be incarcerated is just bad form.
Possessed:To Stix, I enjoy the occasional dive into the deep end, I like playing Nephandi which sometimes does ionvolve quite evil things. Same thing wit hthe BSD's. They are cathartic experiences. Does this make me mentally imbalanced? If it does it would surprise a whole lot of people since to do the work I do one must go through a psych evaluation and during my life I've gone through a few extra because the army also makes a few of those mandatorily from everyone. And I can pretty happily say that I'm quite sane thank you.
Stix:There aren't enough capital letters or exclamation points to make this a flame war