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Complain incessantly about Solar Hero Style in this thread

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Sojko:
Limited Reagent:
Heaven Thunder Hammer: Added a minimum distance so it's still useful when dealing no damage.
You do know that the knockback depends on the raw pre-saok damage, right ? How do you even do to make 0 raw damage ? Negative strength ?
Yes, I know that. Adamant Skin Technique reduces raw damage to zero, right? That's about all I can think of at the moment, but still.
Sojko:
1) If you had taken the time to use the "replied on" feature, you'd have noticed that I wasn't talking to you, but criticizing the scenelong version.
2) Your version is an action-long reflexive, what are you complaing about ? I'm saying I agree with you there, if you actually pay attention to what's written instead of making assumptions.

I didn't even know there was a "replied on" feature; I'm relatively new to posting on these forums. Also, one weapon, two blows is quite a bit different than what I was going for, not to mention my version can be scene length within certain circumstances. It was an honest mistake, and without the "replied on" thing or any quote on your part, any easy one to make.

---
So to actually contribute, I don't think Inugami's is actually that bad. While he doesn't say it explicitly, the parenthetical seems to imply that it only works on natural and improvised weapon attacks. For 2m for the scene, it seems reasonable, or even somewhat weak. If it worked with form weapons, it still doesn't seem too bad. Maybe a willpower cost too?

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Limited Reagent:
Fists of Iron is more like Claws of the Silver Moon, but action-length and more based around damage. It can also be activated for the scene for an extra willpower, if Form is up.
I think should just be scene-length already, with any upgrades being the result of Solar-only Charms. Keeps it simple, keeps it efficient.


Dragon Coil: moved post-form, given a boost at essence 4. Why? I liked what Black Paper Moon did on his revision that's in the Exalted wiki.
I'll have to check that out. I was also thinking of moving it post-Form to place Inevitable Victory Meditation pre-Form. Also, to give Crashing Wave Throw a somewhat more sensible prerequisite.

Form: added 2 things: the damage increase can be used on clinches, and it gives a slight boost to the use of improvised weapons.


Shockwave Technique: ..Instead, I made Shockwave Technique into what comes down to an area effect Blazing Solar Bolt; the Solar explodes in a shockwave of essence, hitting everyone around him.
*ahem* That was my idea.
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Limited Reagent:
Yes, I know that. Adamant Skin Technique reduces raw damage to zero, right? That's about all I can think of at the moment, but still.
That's subjeect to interpretation.

Exalted 2E core ; p.207:
The Solar invokes this Charm immediately before the damage of a physical attack or similar effect is rolled.
Meaning it would work on the final damage, not the raw damage. It's true the charm says raw damage, which means it contradicts itself and that must be dealt by the GM, but :
Exalted 2E core ; p.207:
reducing [the raw damage] to 0 after all other effect
Which would mean that the knockback from HTH use the pre AST raw damage. Errara ruling about this second part also indicates it is actually a step 8 charm that mentions raw damage and step 7 by mistake.

So you don't even have to modify HTH to make it useful against AST, just interpret AST correctly.
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Sojko, it's pretty damn clear that the charm means it reduces the damage to 0 after all other effects are done with modifying the damage.
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Inugami:
I've heard someone complain that they can't get enough successes on Solar Hero attack rolls to make the Form's reflexive effect worth it. How true is that?


A little bit. I did the style in a min/maxing = light-to-none game and I don't think I ever pushed raw damage more than 2-3 points with the form effect.

Inugami:
Shockwave Technique should not compete with two other Charms. It should upgrade Heaven Thunder Hammer and/or Crashing Wave Throw, or be moved aside as an expansion upgrade, with some other effect serving as the capstone.


It does feel like Shockwave Technique is stealing your stunt spotlight for Heaven Thunder Hammer. A completely separate charm effect, which could be combined with HTH if you still liked the "punch people around" might be nice... maybe a more generalized "You can use your opponents as improvised weapons" whether grappling or striking. Or maybe just expand on the damage/unblockability of Shockwave Technique as written... Or maybe just make it a "punch a guy so hard, it's an area effect." like that one Water Dragon charm about ripples of damage.

Inugami:
If Hammer on Iron Technique and Heaven Thunder Hammer are so chummy (and HoIT really can't be used to make any sort of grappling attack)


I agree they're chummy, but what aspect of HoIT negates the possibility of allowing a flurried set of attempts to establish a clinch, or even crush/throw aspects?

The reason I ask is that's sort of how I see the standard delivery method for Crashing Wave Throw being... "I'm going to flurry grapple attempts until I lay hands on you, so I can throw you into a wall." If there's a rule I'm overlooking like, "HoIT doesn't explicitly break rate" or "Clinch attempts can never be in Extra Action charms"
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Jericus Rex:
A little bit. I did the style in a min/maxing = light-to-none game
A what?
 
and I don't think I ever pushed raw damage more than 2-3 points with the form effect.
Not as nice as the Strength-increasing effect of the Infernal Form, especially since it adds piercing to all unarmed strikes.


It does feel like Shockwave Technique is stealing your stunt spotlight for Heaven Thunder Hammer. A completely separate charm effect, which could be combined with HTH if you still liked the "punch people around" might be nice... maybe a more generalized "You can use your opponents as improvised weapons" whether grappling or striking. Or maybe just expand on the damage/unblockability of Shockwave Technique as written... Or maybe just make it a "punch a guy so hard, it's an area effect." like that one Water Dragon charm about ripples of damage.
Any of those would be better ideas.


what aspect of HoIT negates the possibility of allowing a flurried set of attempts to establish a clinch, or even crush/throw aspects?
Holden mentioned that such was the intent when MA Charms mention attacks but do not explicitly include grabbing attacks or crushing clinches.

Thus, the multi-wallslam of doom, according to him, is not a legal Combo.

Agh.
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Inugami:
Holden mentioned that such was the intent when MA Charms mention attacks but do not explicitly include grabbing attacks or crushing clinches.

Thus, the multi-wallslam of doom, according to him, is not a legal Combo.


Of course, like the 'you can't use perfect defenses while you're in a clinch' ruling, this is completely unsupported by the rules as written, and I'm less enthusiastic about this one.
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Inugami:
I think should just be scene-length already, with any upgrades being the result of Solar-only Charms. Keeps it simple, keeps it efficient.
With what I gave it, I think having it straight-up scenelength would be too much, especially for the first Charm in a tree. I like having it as a scenelong effect, however, which is why I gave it the scene long activation after the form is up. I also like it getting more powerful with essence rating, so it keeps clear usefulness throughout a Solar's career.

Inugami:
I'll have to check that out. I was also thinking of moving it post-Form to place Inevitable Victory Meditation pre-Form. Also, to give Crashing Wave Throw a somewhat more sensible prerequisite.

I like the short length of the style, so moving Dragon Coil post form just makes it so the Form has only two prereq charms. I also make Crashing Wave require Dragon Coil and Heaven Thunder Hammer, being in some ways a combination of the two effects.

Inugami:
*ahem* That was my idea.

Really? Where did you say that? 'Cause I either read it somewhere and thought it was a good idea, or we both came up with it independently. Either way, awesome. Here's what I've currently got written for it, by the way:

SHOCKWAVE TECHNIQUE

Cost: 6m, 1wp; Mins: Martial Arts 5, Essence 4; Type: Simple

Keywords: Combo-Basic, Knockback, Obvious

Duration: Instant

Prerequisite Charms: Crashing Wave Throw, Ox-Stunning Blow

              The Solar burns with Essence and explodes in a blast of golden light. This Charm is an unarmed Martial Arts-based attack. The shockwave expands from the Lawgiver (her Essence x 3) yards in all directions, hitting everyone and everything in that area with an unblockable attack. It is only undodgable if those in the area cannot get behind 100% hard cover or are unable to get outside the blast radius as a reflexive action. Inanimate objects or the ground may be damaged by the blast. The Solar's attack pool equals (her Dexterity + Martial Arts + Essence). She rolls this attack only once and applies it to all valid targets (each target only once). The attack does bashing damage with a base damage, before adding attack successes, of (the Exalt's Willpower). The shockwave also throws all hit by it back to the edge of the blast radius. Targets that strike hard objects take damage as with Heaven Thunder Hammer.

              The Lawgiver may replace all base damage with stunning damage, as described in Ox-Stunning Blow, spending up to (her Willpower) extra motes to gain one die per mote stunning damage. The stunning damage is still a Crippling effect.

              A clinched Exalt may use this Charm on her action (even if Inactive) to perfectly escape from the clinch, even if the attack does not hit.

              Finally, the Solar may activate this Charm along with Solar Hero Form as a reflexive action not counting as Charm use, if she spends five extra motes and adds one tick to the speed of the form Charm.


Sojko:
So you don't even have to modify HTH to make it useful against AST, just interpret AST correctly.
Even if you do interpret AST this way, having a minimum of even, say, (Martial Arts) yards does makes sure that the HTH is useful, even if you have a low strength, you're using a natural punch attack, and you just barely hit. It's not like you can activate the Charm after you know what your raw damage is.

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Limited Reagent:
With what I gave it
Like I said, I think you gave it too much and made it too short. I think it should be more modest and last all scene, and further awesomeness can be added with Solar-only expansions.

And also in-Style Charms. Like so:

SLEDGEHAMMER FIST PUNCH
No Cost
Permanent
Obvious
Martial Arts 3, Essence 2, Fists of Iron Technique

This Charm permanently enhances Fists of Iron Technique. When that Charm is active, the Solar may spend 3 motes at Step 1 of attack resolution to double the raw damage of an attack against an inanimate object.


POUNDING HAMMER OF DEVASTATION TECHNIQUE (Solar-only Expansion Charm)
No Cost
Permanent
Obvious
Martial Arts 5, Essence 5, Sledgehammer Fist Punch

This Charm permanently enhances Fists of Iron Technique. When that Charm is active, the Solar may spend 7 motes at any time to activate this upgrade. For the rest of the scene, any time that the Solar makes an attack against an inanimate object, add levels of automatic, post-soak damage equal to four times the Solar's permanent essence. This effect is explicitly allowed to interact with the bonus provided by Sledgehammer Fist Punch, if the Solar also pays for that effect.


Really? Where did you say that?
Repeatedly, in many previous threads on this forum, and also in the LAST forum.

If you read it somewhere, it was most likely from me.

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Fists of Iron Technique
Cost: 6m; Mins: Martial Arts 2, Essence 2; Type: Reflexive.
Keywords: Combo-OK.
Duration: One Scene.
Prerequisite Charms: None.
The Solar infuses her hands with the strength of her Essence and strikes like the Unconquered Sun. For the duration of this charm, the Solar is considered to be wearing Orichalcum Smashfists. If the Solar choses to fight with a different form weapon, he can choose to use whichever is most advantageous for any given attack. 
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That's horribly broken for a root charm.
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Incendax, the problem with that Charm is that it's useless when you're wearing real Orichalcum Smashfists. The original version, and my proposed fix, both work without and WITH smashfists.
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Incendax:
Fists of Iron Technique
Cost: 6m; Mins: Martial Arts 2, Essence 2; Type: Reflexive.
Keywords: Combo-OK.
Duration: One Scene.
Prerequisite Charms: None.
The Solar infuses her hands with the strength of her Essence and strikes like the Unconquered Sun. For the duration of this charm, the Solar is considered to be wearing Orichalcum Smashfists. If the Solar choses to fight with a different form weapon, he can choose to use whichever is most advantageous for any given attack. 


I agree this is Broken. I would make it MA 5 Ess 3, 3m 1wp and it branches off of FoIT as an Expansion. I would also allow the Solar to spend 7m 1wp (total) to also gain the effects of Orichalcum God-Kicking boots on top of the smash fists.
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Zironic:
Sojko, it's pretty damn clear that the charm means it reduces the damage to 0 after all other effects are done with modifying the damage.


I agree with this. In the official errata it is stated that despite its activation in step 7, AST reduces all damage effects to 0 in step 10 of combat.
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I would upgrade the combo-basic for shockwave and also make FoIT a reflexive, non-charm use while Solar Hero Form is active. That way you still need to pay for it but you don't have to waste a charm or combo activation on it. And it's attainable from the get-go.
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