Argue ferociously about Sidereal Martial Arts in this thread.

JimB:

I am basically okay with Spell-Shattering Palm.  Yes, it's cheap with a sutra, but the difficulty is usually high enough that you'd better put it in a Combo, which raises the cost notably.  It wouldn't break my heart to see the cost upped a bit anyway.

I agree.

lantash1482:

before everyone keeps going. remember that sidereals can't make new native charms. SMA is all they have that lets them stand up to other celestial beings.

But see, I perceive that as a problem, not a fix.

See, for me, I feel like the Sidereal native charmset should be a big, comprehensive, expensive mess. I feel like Sidereals should be able to pull effects out of their ass to deal with problems in ways that completely sidestep other Exalts or cover their competency in multiple arenas simultaneously. For the most part, their charm set does this, with a few exceptions.

However, the fact that Sidereals notably cannot make new Charms and have to rely on Sorcery or SMA to grow is sort of horse shit. Every Sidereal that wants to grow beyond E5 has to invest in SMA. I'm fine with Sidereals being the "old masters" of the Exalted universe; that's sort of neat. The fact that they're all shoehorned into a single martial ability post E5 in order to keep growing, and indeed, they have to invent entirely new martial arts in order to enhance their chosen niche  is the bullshit part. This may be the fault of the way martial arts, in general, are constructed more than Sidereals in particular. A Sidereal beaurocrat has to invent a way to punch beurocracy if he wanted to grow beyond E5, and I've never really been comfortable with that.

I think Sidereals should have very powerful, subtely limited native charms even in the non-elder Essence range, which should carry them through or out of most encounters. Saying that SMA needs to be retared because Sidereals have no other choice is not a good defense of SMA. SMA should be awesome and thematic. I would just like to either see Sidereals given a few other options, or else have MA in general reimagined.

Mendrian:

lantash1482:

before everyone keeps going. remember that sidereals can't make new native charms. SMA is all they have that lets them stand up to other celestial beings.

But see, I perceive that as a problem, not a fix.

See, for me, I feel like the Sidereal native charmset should be a big, comprehensive, expensive mess. I feel like Sidereals should be able to pull effects out of their ass to deal with problems in ways that completely sidestep other Exalts or cover their competency in multiple arenas simultaneously. For the most part, their charm set does this, with a few exceptions.

However, the fact that Sidereals notably cannot make new Charms and have to rely on Sorcery or SMA to grow is sort of horse shit. Every Sidereal that wants to grow beyond E5 has to invest in SMA. I'm fine with Sidereals being the "old masters" of the Exalted universe; that's sort of neat. The fact that they're all shoehorned into a single martial ability post E5 in order to keep growing, and indeed, they have to invent entirely new martial arts in order to enhance their chosen niche  is the bullshit part. This may be the fault of the way martial arts, in general, are constructed more than Sidereals in particular. A Sidereal beaurocrat has to invent a way to punch beurocracy if he wanted to grow beyond E5, and I've never really been comfortable with that.

I think Sidereals should have very powerful, subtely limited native charms even in the non-elder Essence range, which should carry them through or out of most encounters. Saying that SMA needs to be retared because Sidereals have no other choice is not a good defense of SMA. SMA should be awesome and thematic. I would just like to either see Sidereals given a few other options, or else have MA in general reimagined.

Sidereals don't NEED SMA to fight a lot of Celestial Exalted or stuff in that range, but I'd imagine many of them enjoy it. But then again I'd imagine most Sidereals would think along the lines of, what charms, influences,bribes and other things can I use to get beaucratically what I want instead of...what crappy SMA paperwork-fu can I bother some Sidereal elder who simply doesn't have the time on his hands in the first place probably, to invent.

Even the Greater Sign of Venus can't dispel Solar circle spells, and it costs a permanent point of Essence and Willpower! It's ridiculous that Spell-Shattering Palm can, especially as an Essence 4 charm that has such a low cost. I'd be fine with it if it couldn't affect Solar/Void Circle spells and could only be used to parry spells or counter them as they are being cast. It's ridiculous for one charm to have the applicability of 6 countermagic spells (plus the 6 sorcery/necromancy charms required to learn them, which, btw, no being in the setting can do, save possibly the Deathlords), whether it requires a roll or not.

Also, it ruins much of the mystique and power of the ancient Solars if their lingering enchantments and curses can be undone by Sidereals, especially young ones. Why haven't the Sidereals raided Denandsor? How do you explain the continued existence of citadels pressed beyond time or lingering wards guarding some mad Twilight's first age artifacts when even a young, inexperienced Sidereal can counter those spells with ease? To me, one of the coolest things about playing a Solar Sorcerer is that they alone were equipped to deal with those things. It also gave extra incentive for the Sidereals to help/work with/manipulate Solars, because they could do things that the Sidereals just can't do, like penetrate those lingering Solar spells. Spell-Shattering Palm lets the Sidereals just brute force through those obstacles, and worse, it lets them do so easily.

Inugami:

JimB:

I am basically okay with Spell-Shattering Palm.  Yes, it's cheap with a sutra, but the difficulty is usually high enough that you'd better put it in a Combo, which raises the cost notably.  It wouldn't break my heart to see the cost upped a bit anyway.

I agree.

I would have made it 12m, 17, 22m and one willpower. Scale the cost, while making sure that it always acts as a counterspell from the same circle no matter what was paid. This way because it acts like a counterspell it doesn't need the shaping keyword but it would make bad things happen because it acts like the same type circle.


Also, I've looked at my "fix" it the more I see that I tried to hard. Not many things needed to be changed. In reality the only things wrong are five jade fury, the Soul Fire Shaper Tree, and in my opinion Manse and demense form.

Mendrian:

However, the fact that Sidereals notably cannot make new Charms and have to rely on Sorcery or SMA to grow is sort of horse shit. Every Sidereal that wants to grow beyond E5 has to invest in SMA. I'm fine with Sidereals being the "old masters" of the Exalted universe; that's sort of neat. The fact that they're all shoehorned into a single martial ability post E5 in order to keep growing, and indeed, they have to invent entirely new martial arts in order to enhance their chosen niche  is the bullshit part.

Sasaya:

 Neighborhood Relocation Scheme and Ceasing to Exist Approach not so much.

Universe Relocation Scheme!  Move the entirety of Creation!

Less helpful than you'd imagine!

Rim:

Sasaya:

 Neighborhood Relocation Scheme and Ceasing to Exist Approach not so much.

Universe Relocation Scheme!  Move the entirety of Creation!

Less helpful than you'd imagine!

Nu uh. What if a primordial was trying to get into creation. How else would you stop it from coming in?

Epimetheus:

Nu uh. What if a primordial was trying to get into creation. How else would you stop it from coming in?

Ah, but, you see, that's where The Universe Ceasing To Exist Technique comes into play.  The Universe ceases existing, and appears elsewhere- DISGUISED.

Fair Folk problems?  Not once they think that Creation is actually just an ordinary freehold!  A really, really, really big one!

Rim:

Epimetheus:

Nu uh. What if a primordial was trying to get into creation. How else would you stop it from coming in?

Ah, but, you see, that's where The Universe Ceasing To Exist Technique comes into play.  The Universe ceases existing, and appears elsewhere- DISGUISED.

Fair Folk problems?  Not once they think that Creation is actually just an ordinary freehold!  A really, really, really big one!

That seems redundant with hiding the universe outside fate.

My tune on SMA may change once glories comes out.  For now, I dislike that what are currently the most powerful suite of combat charms in the game are primarily restricted to what are supposed to be the most subtle of all Exalts in terms of their operation.  I also dislike that Sidereals are described as having a more enlightened or refined essence than other Celestials, and I dislike that there are less of them than the others... actually it's kind of ironic that thematically I have the most problem with Sidereals but the most enjoyable Exalted game that I can remember is one I ran for Sidereal PCs.

At least these threads were named appropriately.

Hecaton:

For now, I dislike that what are currently the most powerful suite of combat charms in the game are primarily restricted to what are supposed to be the most subtle of all Exalts in terms of their operation.

I agree. I was extremely disppointed with Sidereals from the day their 1e book came out, not just because of some of the broken charms and setting elements I didn't like, but because it made the subtle manipulators into the most munchkin combat monsters, and worse, made that the only way they could advance. I was hoping their Astrology would be at least equal to their MA, but that wasn't the case. Astrology sucks for what it costs. The fact that they have to beg little gods to invoke what should have been, IMO, one of their intrinsic exalted powers just adds insult to injury.

Spell Shattering Palm needs the Sorcerous keyword.

JimB:

And that leads me to my other problem with SMA: Almost all of the published styles are fucked up.  Some of the problems are small (Citrine Poxes of Contagion has form weapons, but every Charm has the Touch Keyword), and others are not so small (famous playtester Holden has gone on record as saying he has never been able to defeat a character using Obsidian Shards of Infinity Style).  So the players are striving for a golden trophy with a small crack that in its side that oozes poison.

While it is true that some styles are just unbeatable, or simply are wonky... the fact is that some of their charms are exceptionally powerful even in the comparatively well-respected styles like Charcoal March of Spiders. The Form gives you three independent actions, each with their own charm-use available. This isn't broken, sure, but it's significantly stronger than, say, Mantis Form.

SMA isn't the be-all, end-all, but I think it's overstating the point that it's not that useful.