Argue ferociously about Sidereal Martial Arts in this thread.

coherent is a relative term in Creation.

Aquillion:

First, Quicksilver Hand of Dreams form makes it so you can't die if you use it at all intelligently.  That's just a bad idea.  It has drawbacks, yes, but none that would let you kill someone who has it.

Really, to me it seems like spending a mote on an excelency and having say... Essence 3 would be enough to negate the benifits of the form charm. in many cases... also because its a shaping effect having Destiny manifesting method actually add +2 so... your looking at an essence 6 sidereal only having about a 50% chance of his form providing any benifit and the shaping tag prevents the effect.  The dream shift should probably be rolled but its not a great fallback (Just kill the person more than 100yards from anyone without IPP up).

Between it, OSoI, SPB, it is by far the most functional.  Its wonky, rather than broken.  It needs some minor revisions and fixes, but its a pretty okay style

The dream shift was what I was talking about.  And you can go into anyone who you're carrying a dream from, which the style makes easy to collect...  so the range you can escape to is effectively unlimited.

If you eliminated that part and made the effect obvious, with the Sidereal's body visibly dissolving into blue smoke and darting into the head of the person whose dreams you escape to, then it would be a lot less problematic.

Aquillion:

If you eliminated that part and made the effect obvious, with the Sidereal's body visibly dissolving into blue smoke and darting into the head of the person whose dreams you escape to, then it would be a lot less problematic.

I agree. or forced an essence roll or something with the shard or some kind of fail clause of some sort (preferably chance based), I'd be ahppier with it.  But on the whole its not aweful.

Epimetheus:

lantash1482:

I was just rereading some of the charms in the SotM. Something occurred to me: how do you defend against the pinnacle charms of Obsidian Shards and Quicksilver hand of Dreams? They are both "do whatever you want" charms. The example for Breathing on the Black Mirror is killing Ligier. This is an essence seven charm.

How would an essence 8 or 9 solar defend against this?

Obsidian shards needs work. personally it should merely allow a person to have (essence) different possibilities for the next action. Quicksilver hand is shaping, it's like fighting fair folk.

Honestly, I can't fathom what the problem is with the pinnacle Charm of OSoI... It's ST fiat, within the guidelines presents it is literally as kind or as cruel as your ST decides it should be. And it can still be blocked by IPP.

Of course it's also being misrepresented, a common occurence in complaints about SMA, because it does not allow the user to "do whatever you want".

It's ST fiat, within the guidelines presents it is literally as kind or as cruel as your ST decides it should be.

That's the problem with it. I want a charm that lets me win because I was awesome not because the ST thought it was cool.

Epimetheus:

That's the problem with it. I want a charm that lets me win because I was awesome not because the ST thought it was cool.

Which is why I suggested that you pretty much replay a scene at least seven times an then choose the one in which you win.

Obsidian Shards:

Of course it's also being misrepresented, a common occurence in complaints about SMA, because it does not allow the user to "do whatever you want".

Hecaton:

Well, as long as you're willing to pay any price, you can make anything happen.  

And that's what Of Things Desired And Feared is for!

(Though there isn't actually anything wrong with OTDaF)

I've seen the various fixes to OSoI, and some of them work better than others.  I'll be honest- given that most people have ideas on how to fix the various persistent perfects and the endless-mote flow of Echoes, Draw Forth One Shard is what always concerns me most.  It's a cool effect, and I like it, but how does one balance it? 

Rim:

I like it, but how does one balance it? 

I consider that the most important aspect of balance.  I see DFOS as having a few problems:

1) If it's as strong as the target, then the Sidereal instantly gains the advantage versus... anything.

2) Both PCs and NPCs could have this, so it's equally annoying for my Ess 5 Dawn to suddenly be at a large disadvantage because the Sidereal pulled a him out of the bag as it is for my behemoth to suddenly be looking itself in the face.

3) Let's pretend the reflection and the original don't have linked pools for jack and skip this bit.

4) It's not distinctive enough.  Instead of coming off as a reflection, it's a magic cloning charm.

I've considered the following possibilities:

1) Give it a unique flaw: it may not activate defensive charms, nor apply a DV or soak to any charm or attack supplemented by certain awareness effects (like Eye of the Unconquered Sun), to represent that this thing is only 'real' as long as you cannot see that it isn't.

2) Make it shaping, and so... no, I prefer the awareness option to this one entirely.

3) Have it use the MAist's essence/willpower (not optimal!)

4) If you're a fan of epic-by-this-charm-alone, make it a being with an ST-assigned motivation related in some way (it may be opposing) to the target's, give it Five Days Darkness' weakness to the Sun, and make it unable to increase traits/attributes/buy charms (it cannot grow) and turn it loose.  Now the charm simply creates a being which may or may not desire to help the Sidereal.  This represents that you've pulled forth a shard that might have been, a not-quite-real force, set loose in Creation.

Just my thoughts.

One important thing for DFOS:

I would favor giving the MAist no control over the shard, but having the shard get a motivation that is logically useful to them (so the charm isn't useless.)  In other words, have the duplicate get a motivation to oppose the original in whatever they do, or to kill the original as quickly as possible, or whatever, but don't let the MAist have any other control over them at all; no possessing them, no looking through their senses, no special influence, nothing.  Pulling out a duplicate and siccing it on the original is quite powerful enough on its own (and would still require some tweaks or weak points to avoid an instant win, because having to fight yourself at full power and the Sidereal at the same time is absurd.)

But mainly, it's important to ensure that the charm can never be used on friendly people.  Once you start producing functional duplicates of your friends on a whim, it's going to break quickly unless the duplicates are totally worthless (which is not what is wanted, I think.)  Making it so the duplicate will immediately try to kill the original and the MAist can do nothing to stop this helps.

Ooo, here's a thought:  The duplicate will try to kill the original at every possible opportunity, and has that as their motivation.  But once they succeed, they effectively become the original, taking their place.  Notice that in this version of the charm, the duplicate has no loyalty to the Sidereal.  They differ from the original in some subtle way, but otherwise, if a Sidereal uses this version of DFOS and then sits back and does nothing (or walks away), and the duplicate wins, they will have accomplished almost nothing.

So what use is this charm?  Easy.  The Sidereal now has to ensure that both die.  This is much easier than it sounds, since the duplicate is going to be psychopathically obsessed with killing the original at any opportunity as long as they're alive.  All the Sidereal has to do is ensure that the duplicate is almost dead by the end of the fight, and then stab them in the back.

Problem:  This doesn't help a PC who is being attacked by their duplicate, unless you actually let them take over the duplicate if they get killed...  which could lead to people negating this charm by throwing themselves on the duplicate's sword, which isn't the intent.

I like your idea.

Perhaps the penalty for being killed by the duplicate is having to change intimacies/motivation in some way. (Taking control of the reflection instead.) Or perhaps a derangement or something.

Mendrian:

However, the fact that Sidereals notably cannot make new Charms and have to rely on Sorcery or SMA to grow is sort of horse shit. Every Sidereal that wants to grow beyond E5 has to invest in SMA.

Mendrian:

The fact that they're all shoehorned into a single martial ability post E5 in order to keep growing, and indeed, they have to invent entirely new martial arts in order to enhance their chosen niche  is the bullshit part. This may be the fault of the way martial arts, in general, are constructed more than Sidereals in particular.

Mendrian:

Saying that SMA needs to be retared because Sidereals have no other choice is not a good defense of SMA. SMA should be awesome and thematic. I would just like to either see Sidereals given a few other options, or else have MA in general reimagined.

I agree. I know the idea of Sidereal's being stuck with whatever (non-MA) Charms the Maidens allow is a part of the setting, but I find it pointless and stagnating to their development within the setting.

It's also stagnating for their marketability. You know there will be no new Sidereal Charms in any upcoming book, and Charms do double time for plot development, fluff, and new shines.