Argue ferociously about Sidereal Martial Arts in this thread.

Daredevil:

Mendrian:

However, the fact that Sidereals notably cannot make new Charms and have to rely on Sorcery or SMA to grow is sort of horse shit. Every Sidereal that wants to grow beyond E5 has to invest in SMA.

Mendrian:

The fact that they're all shoehorned into a single martial ability post E5 in order to keep growing, and indeed, they have to invent entirely new martial arts in order to enhance their chosen niche  is the bullshit part. This may be the fault of the way martial arts, in general, are constructed more than Sidereals in particular.

Mendrian:

Saying that SMA needs to be retared because Sidereals have no other choice is not a good defense of SMA. SMA should be awesome and thematic. I would just like to either see Sidereals given a few other options, or else have MA in general reimagined.

I agree. I know the idea of Sidereal's being stuck with whatever (non-MA) Charms the Maidens allow is a part of the setting, but I find it pointless and stagnating to their development within the setting.

It's also stagnating for their marketability. You know there will be no new Sidereal Charms in any upcoming book, and Charms do double time for plot development, fluff, and new shines.

Sidereals are sidereals because they have that limit and have to apply their very narrow charmsets as best as they can to any situation. It adds something that you can't get with lunars and solars who can go through anything at brute force.

Epimetheus:

Sidereals are sidereals because they have that limit and have to apply their very narrow charmsets as best as they can to any situation. It adds something that you can't get with lunars and solars who can go through anything at brute force.

I think there are a lot better qualities to the Sidereals that define them far better than a Charm cap. Like the concept that they are bureaucratic fate ninjas.

Also, from what I see, there seems to be a lot of complaining every time a new book comes out because there are not enough Sidereal exclusive goodies. Well, that's because most exclusive goodies are Charms. If it's Manses, Artifacts, ex. well, those are generally universal stuff, and Astrology dosn't look like it will get any new additions for a while, so bored Sidereal Players/fans will always be out of luck.

JiveX:

The problem is they are Lunar Charms which are (because of their Attribute orientation and the nature of Attribute-based Charms) really bad templates for the design of Ability- (even weird Ability) based Charms.

I dunno; since Martial Arts is every Ability rolled into one as far as Charm concepts go, and since it often permits attacks from different Abilities (the most obvious example being the Five Glorious Dragon styles), I think a case could be made that it's similar to Attribute-based Charms.  But yeah, I see where you're coming from.

Daredevil:

I think there are a lot better qualities to the Sidereals that define them far better than a Charm cap. Like the concept that they are bureaucratic fate ninjas.

Nothing says bureaucratic like arbitrary rules. Their limited selection of approved Charms is supposed to be frustrating, much like working for a large organization that will have objectives contrary to your own.

Epimetheus:

Sidereals are sidereals because they have that limit and have to apply their very narrow charmsets as best as they can to any situation.

Maybe its me but I think they would have been better off if they had been designed in such a way that the best way to describe them wasn't "what they can't do".  Sidereals have to plan how to handle everything because they can't muscle through it.  Everyone else *can* muscle through it or take time and plan how to handle something.  Its not adding something, its taking away something.

BogMod:

Epimetheus:

Sidereals are sidereals because they have that limit and have to apply their very narrow charmsets as best as they can to any situation.

Maybe its me but I think they would have been better off if they had been designed in such a way that the best way to describe them wasn't "what they can't do".  Sidereals have to plan how to handle everything because they can't muscle through it.  Everyone else *can* muscle through it or take time and plan how to handle something.  Its not adding something, its taking away something.

When I think of best way to describe Sidereals. Not being able to make new charms is not the first thing I think of.

JimB:

Epimetheus:

It's actually forty-eight percent. Dragon-Blooded aren't Celestials.

Yeah, but I wasn't talking about them.  I figured at least a couple of the Solar Charms are usable (I don't remember any problem with the Thrown Charm, for instance), and I don't remember any of the Lunar Charms sucking, but maybe my memory is off.

I realize that this is the SMA thread, not the Solar Charms thread, but I feel the need to interject.

The Solar Thrown Charms are awful. Torrent of Inner Light is basically useless in combat due to requiring you to just stand there for about thirty seconds in order to use it, and is particularly odd due to basically being the same, but marginally weaker than Elemental Bolt, an Essence 1 Dragon-Blooded Charm (Essence limit instead of Attribute, lower Accuracy, uses Thrown only instead of variable Abilities, and taking multiple actions instead of using multiple people). Acuity of the Far-Flung Hand is just telekinesis, but is also a Permanent Charm with a listed mote cost, and no guidelines on how frequently those motes should be spent. And Maelstrom of Celestial Dominance... Maelstrom is a scene-length Charm that exponentially increases your attacks while stacking with Extra Actions effects, makes them all undodgeable, triples their range, provides undodgeable, unblockable counterattacks against anyone who approaches you, and gives you a scene-length near-perfect parry against ranged attacks. For 20 motes. How is that a good idea?

GogoPartDuex:

When I think of best way to describe Sidereals. Not being able to make new charms is not the first thing I think of.

Depends if I am in a good mood or not.  Good mood they are fate ninjas from heaven.  Bad mood they are martial artists, and thats all any of them ever are and ever will be.

GogoPartDuex:

When I think of best way to describe Sidereals. Not being able to make new charms is not the first thing I think of.

This, at least to some extent.  The point of Sidereals has always been to explore the concept of Celestial-level Exalts who had to do things differently.  In 1e, the idea was basically that the Sidereals would have extremely potent and focused charms, complimented by an extremely broad but subtle system for manipulating events, and they would use these in concert to solve problems (with SMA being the answer to 'How does a Sidereal keep up with peers at high essence?' and 'Why are they MA masters?' all at once).

In 1e, Dr. Moran took these requirements and wrote a charmset so evocative of the ideas implicit in stars, enlightenment and fate that it blew me away.  It was everything required, explored ideas none of the other charmsets had considered, and resonated with each constellation and scripture.  Tying that together with the (admittedly complex but very evocative) system Grabowski came up with for Astrology, and it created powerful and strange Exalts who could handle nigh any problem, but never in the way you'd expect.  Figuring out how Sidereals handled problems was a joy which few other RPGs have ever managed to duplicate.

In 2e, two problems came about.  First, the Sidereals book came out- and while the fluff and flavor of that book was arguably better than 1e, the charms went a long way towards shaking off the best parts of the original charmset.  Suddenly, Sidereals seemed pretty weak compared to the re-written and high-quality Lunars 2e.  Combined with the dire problems Scroll of the Monk had, which led most people to not factor SMA into the equation anymore, Sidereals suddenly didn't look nearly as powerful or mysterious as they once had (though I give credit to Stephenls for the simplification of Astrology)

Now we have two situations: in 1e, the lack of custom charms was simply not much of an issue.  In fact, there was much ado over Sidereals, because they appeared vastly superior to other splats (though, in most cases, this was not true).  In 2e, the lack of improvement in the charmset plus the dismissal of SMA leads to the idea that Sidereals really don't compare to other Celestials.

So we get to the question- if you could redo Sidereals from 1e on so that they had custom charms, would you?  Is it possible to keep them balanced and interesting without them?

I say yes.  I think 1e proved that it could be done.  On the other hand, it's certainly much easier to balance against other charmsets if the Sidereal charmset works the same way.  I just fear that it further loses the flavor it had in 1e, a flavor which I have not seen the like of in Exalted until Infernals came out.

But that is only my opinion.

EDIT:

Incidentally, though I sympathize with the frustration over the idea that Sidereals have to focus on Martial Arts and only MA, I would defend that by saying that some Martial Arts styles are worthy of it.  Citrine Poxes involves MA, but it is mostly a surrogate for a real healing tree, and it proves the genius of the Sidereals when innovating power that their patrons did not gift them with support for.  Likewise, Border of Logic is a brilliantly done style that makes one think more of a magic psychologist than of another of a legion of Pai Mai.

Still, I really, really wish they'd experimented with Astrology more.  Just having support for one other option of development (Ignoring Sorcery for the moment) would probably have made Sidereals at high essence more interesting to fans.

Daredevil:

Also, from what I see, there seems to be a lot of complaining every time a new book comes out because there are not enough Sidereal exclusive goodies. Well, that's because most exclusive goodies are Charms. If it's Manses, Artifacts, ex. well, those are generally universal stuff, and Astrology dosn't look like it will get any new additions for a while, so bored Sidereal Players/fans will always be out of luck.

It doesn't?

BogMod:

GogoPartDuex:

When I think of best way to describe Sidereals. Not being able to make new charms is not the first thing I think of.

Depends if I am in a good mood or not.  Good mood they are fate ninjas from heaven.  Bad mood they are martial artists, and thats all any of them ever are and ever will be.

And this would be a reflection of how the books portray all they are how?

GogoPartDuex:

And this would be a reflection of how the books portray all they are how?

The idea was that their charms are a standard "Toolbox" (the Agent of Heavan angle)
and the SMA and CMA represent their Enlightened Vizier nature.

They are great teachers capable of exploring areas that other Exalts can learn, though they themseleves dont always excell at what they teach.

I always thought it would be cool if they had a permanent native MA charm that allowed them to Design Hero Style Expansion charms for other Exalt types (but not use them) and even ASS spells (but not use them).  Sort of a "those who teach can't do" thing.

Of course the thematica fallout of that I haven't really thought through.

GogoPartDuex:

And this would be a reflection of how the books portray all they are how?

The idea was that their charms are a standard "Toolbox" (the Agent of Heavan angle)
and the SMA and CMA represent their Enlightened Vizier nature.

They are great teachers capable of exploring areas that other Exalts can learn, though they themseleves dont always excell at what they teach.

I always thought it would be cool if they had a permanent native MA charm that allowed them to Design Hero Style Expansion charms for other Exalt types (but not use them) and even ASS spells (but not use them).  Sort of a "those who teach can't do" thing.

Of course the thematica fallout of that I haven't really thought through.

JiveX:

They are great teachers capable of exploring areas that other Exalts can learn, though they themseleves dont always excell at what they teach.

I always thought it would be cool if they had a permanent native MA charm that allowed them to Design Hero Style Expansion charms for other Exalt types (but not use them) and even ASS spells (but not use them).  Sort of a "those who teach can't do" thing.

Of course the thematica fallout of that I haven't really thought through.

I rather like this idea. I think, if anything, it would enhance their themes.

But, yes. Hopefully, in a year, when they start to release Exalted Revised (White Wolf never releases 3rd Editions, just "Revised"), this pointless Charm cap will be gone.

I'll throw my hat in the ring for the belief that Sidereals should have the best training charms as well - not just for mortals, but for Exalts as well.  There's a reason the Solars needed Sidereals to teach them SMA, and it took Sidereals to develop the Elemental Dragon Styles for DBs.