Life 5 Question ?

A player mage with at 5 in my game love with a capital L, shapeshifting.

For some reason, lastly, he was sticked with a big bear form.

I mean... a REALLY big bear.

What we would call a Dire Bear.

Imagine roughly a prehistorical bear, 2 time the size of actual polar white bear.

The... always the bad part.  He turns to me and ask: -What are the attributes and stats of those ?

How do you live with this ?  It must happens to you too in your game ?
What do you think should be the attribute and stats of a creature like that ?

Give me some inputs because im loss.

Well because his size would be going up he would automatically get a boost in health.

As for other effects, because its a "dire bear" type thing i would say a boost in strength athletics and brawl and turning all brawling type attacks be turned to leathal damage. His presence would go up just because of the fact that he is a huge frickin bear lol. I guess that would also give him a boost in intimidation.

I would also say it would get a boost in perception because of the hightened sence of smell. Maby even a boost in initiative if you are feeling generous.

Personally, if i was in your place, i would say that he needs 3 successes in order to actually turn into the bear thingy gaining a +2 to strength athletics and brawl, +3 to perception, +2 to initiative and lethal brawling. Each additional success would be another +1 to any of the stats listed above accept for size.

I need to say that I dont have to book right in front of me, but since this sounds more like the spell Fantasia than Greater Shape-Changing (since its a pre-historic bear), I'd rule that he'd have to 'build' it. If all of his successes just went to size like the size of the creature in question, there probable wouldn't be enough left over to add to str or dex.
    He'd turn into a huge bear sure, with claws and teeth for a leathal attack, a better nose and eyesight for a few modifiers, but the only real stat change would be size, so it would give him a huge health pool, but it wont give automatic attribute boosts as if he were playing oWoD Changing Breeds. His strength, dex, ect., all stay the same.     
         What players somtimes don't get is that Supernal shape-changing is NOT the same thing as a were-creature shape-shifting. Also I should point out that shuch a huge bear witnessed by a group of sleepers would probably unravel rather quickly, since the successes went to stat boots and not spell potency.

Shapechanging says that the mage assumes the Attributes, physical characteristics, and size of an average member of the intended species.  Greater Shapechanging allows the mage to also add the features of another animal with the Transform Self spell.  Now I don't know the stats for an average Dire Bear, but I think it would be possible to become an average bear and then add the size of a prehistoric bear with Transform Self and to add increased Attributes with Honing the Form.  Masters of Life can be formidable indeed.

These are the stats for a bear, found in Blood of the Wolf:

Attributes: Intelligence 1, Wits 2, Resolve 4, Strength 5,
Dexterity 2, Stamina 4, Presence 3, Manipulation 1, Composure
4
Skills: Athletics (Climbing) 3, Brawl 4, Intimidation 3,
Survival 3
Willpower: 5
Initiative: 6
Defense: 2
Speed: 13 (species factor 6)
Size: 7
Weapons/Attacks:
Type Damage Dice Pool
Bite 3 (L) 7
Claw 1 (L) 9
Health: 11

This might also help to visualize:


From left to right these are the animals listed

Cave Bear (extinct, height may not be accurate)
Thoroughbred Horse
Average Man
Polar Bear
Grizzly Bear
American Lion
White Tail Deer
African Lion

Wow! Sweet chart man!

Lostkith:

Wow! Sweet chart man!

Isn't it though?  Google fu!

Anyway, does any of that help you, Setzer?

Ophidimancer:

These are the stats for a bear, found in Blood of the Wolf:

Attributes: Intelligence 1, Wits 2, Resolve 4, Strength 5,
Dexterity 2, Stamina 4, Presence 3, Manipulation 1, Composure
4
Skills: Athletics (Climbing) 3, Brawl 4, Intimidation 3,
Survival 3
Willpower: 5
Initiative: 6
Defense: 2
Speed: 13 (species factor 6)
Size: 7
Weapons/Attacks:
Type Damage Dice Pool
Bite 3 (L) 7
Claw 1 (L) 9
Health: 11

Ok, those stats are representative of a big polar bear ?

Str 5, Sta 4 seems low to me... no ?

The spell was Greater Shapeshifting, and my player argues that since Tyrex, prehistoric bear and stuff like that did existed in the past, it is not something akin to fantasia spell, but really to Greater shapeshifting.

He also said that he readed all the errata about those spells, a thing I have not done yet.

So I wonder....

For that chart and the stats, thanks alot...
However the stats seems low to me.  But anywaym those are official so...

This thread is relevant to my interests.

Along with the stats of a T Rex or a Cave bear, what would the stats be for say...a Giant Squid? :D

You don't really want to turn into a Giant Squid, not unless you're already a thousand leauges underwater. They're basically built for the high pressure environment of the lightless depths, and comming up tends to do bad things to their internal organs.

As for the Kraken cryptid though... well, that's a different story. ;)

Well fantasia would be thrown into the mix to keep the seal on this tentacled pickle jar.

>.>

Hey does the Kraken actually exist in WoD? Is it in a sourcebook by chance?

And if not, what ball park would its stats be in?

Setzer74:

Ok, those stats are representative of a big polar bear ?

It doesn't say, I assumed it was an average bear.  It can probably be adjusted, but I'd assume this as a default.

Setzer74:

Str 5, Sta 4 seems low to me... no ?

Why?  It means the average bear is as strong and tough as the toughest human.  Strength 5 lets you move something weighing up to half a ton with no extra effort, not even a roll.

Setzer74:

The spell was Greater Shapeshifting, and my player argues that since Tyrex, prehistoric bear and stuff like that did existed in the past, it is not something akin to fantasia spell, but really to Greater shapeshifting.

I agree.  You can't use Fantasia on yourself anyway.

Setzer74:

However the stats seems low to me.

Well you could feel free to adjust them however you want, just be careful that you don't create a world where regular bears can go around knocking houses down with no effort.  That wouldn't quite make sense.

I wont create bear where they can knock down house... but regular bear means what ?

Where I live, a regular bear would be a black one.

But black bear in at one extremity, while a polar one, is the other extremity.

And to me, a regular polar bear... is probably stronger than the strongest black one...

Setzer74:

And to me, a regular polar bear... is probably stronger than the strongest black one...

Well then adjust as you see fit.

May I suggest you give it the Tiger treatment as suggested here on the White Wolf Wiki?  That might be a useful reference in general, it gives page numbers where different animals are listed.