Difference Between Apocalypse and Forsaken?

Everywhere I go, I here complaints and statements about how much more POWERFUL oWoD werewolves were than the nWoD werewolves. It seems that it's even made some players hate the latter quite a bit.

The Free Man:

Everywhere I go, I here complaints and statements about how much more POWERFUL oWoD werewolves were than the nWoD werewolves.

Have these people define 'power' for you.  A lot of what looks like nerfing is actually just adjustment to the new baseline level of the nWOD:  The slightly weaker form stats, not getting Agg damage for the base character type, etc.

You can't just line the two up and say one is weaker than the other, because they exist in different games with different assumptions.  Just like you can't just say a Strength 5 WOD character is clearly weaker than a Strength 10 d20 character.

That said, the werewolves were weakened a bit combat-wise and aren't quite as able to let a few characters charge into battle and tear everything to shreds with the rest playing whichever support roles.  The Forsaken need to fight more much cohesively as a group to be effective.

The Free Man:

What exactly is the difference between the two?

You have to understand that there are huge number of them.  It'll take a very long time to sit here and actually pound out all the differences, even in broad strokes.  It'll probably be easier to go the other way:   Where they're still the same.

Both games deal with animist werewolves that derive their power from being part spirit creatures.
Both games have the werewolves' power relate in part to the moon which imparts an Auspice for each moon phase.
Both games deal with a strong sense of duty and responsibility; both base playable characters follow a formalized code of behavior.
Both games involve werewolves with five different forms some of which cause supernatural fear, enhanced healing, a weakness to silver, and a need to breed with mortal stock and not each other.
Both games involve powers that are learned from spirits, the ability to bind spirits into items to make them Fetishes and ritual magic.
Both games include a bad faction of werewolves that work for particularly bad spirits.
Both games include packs that are sanctified by Totem spirits that join with the pack and make them strong, but not without a cost.
Both games have Tribes that are blessed by far more potent spirits as Totems.
Both games have mechanics for flipping out and killing friendlies.
Both games have Renown systems for measuring your character's relative achievements, that also affects your Gift progression.

That's probably most of the key ones.  And yes, I still stand by that being far shorter than dealing with all the differences.

Taking away the Garou's ability to deal aggravated damage with his claws is huge in my opinion.  I'm trying to get a copy of the NWOD Rulebook and the VtR Corebook and see how combat and damage works.

And I have yet to read the part where Essences allows me to spend a point and get multiple actions like Rage did. 

WolfMan86:

Taking away the Garou's ability to deal aggravated damage with his claws is huge in my opinion.

Different game, different default power levels.  No one has automatic access to aggravated damage and aggravated damage is hard to mitigate and heal for everyone.  It's become more a nuke than a regular weapon.

WolfMan86:

And I have yet to read the part where Essences allows me to spend a point and get multiple actions like Rage did.

That's because it doesn't.  Multiple actions are another thing that no one really has the power to do anymore.  They also changed Celerity to not grant multiple actions.  So far the only thing that allows multiple actions are high levels of Fighting Style Merits which anyone can get and only apply to attacks.

WolfMan86:

Taking away the Garou's ability to deal aggravated damage with his claws is huge in my opinion.  I'm trying to get a copy of the NWOD Rulebook and the VtR Corebook and see how combat and damage works.

And I have yet to read the part where Essences allows me to spend a point and get multiple actions like Rage did. 

Both of these are basically general adjustments to the nWOD baseline.  Dealing aggravate damage is much more difficult in the nWOD (it either takes overloading the target's Health, taking advantage of supernatural weaknesses, or paying XP for magic that does it).  Supernaturals do not innately do Agg anymore, across the board.  Werewolves don't have to worry about enemies that have 12+ soak dice against everything that isn't Agg, and only deal Agg back as it is.  Likewise, multiple actions take XP to get, and are specific.  There is no dice-pool splitting or low-level 'take X extra instant actions this turn' in the nWOD.

If the Uratha had Agg dealing claws naturally, and could spend Essence like Rage for extra actions, they would be brokenly overpowered in the nWOD.

Ophidimancer:

WolfMan86:

Taking away the Garou's ability to deal aggravated damage with his claws is huge in my opinion.

Different game, different default power levels.  No one has automatic access to aggravated damage and aggravated damage is hard to mitigate and heal for everyone.  It's become more a nuke than a regular weapon.

WolfMan86:

And I have yet to read the part where Essences allows me to spend a point and get multiple actions like Rage did.

That's because it doesn't.  Multiple actions are another thing that no one really has the power to do anymore.  They also changed Celerity to not grant multiple actions.  So far the only thing that allows multiple actions are high levels of Fighting Style Merits which anyone can get and only apply to attacks.

So do I have to get the WoD Corebook to find the rules on combat, turns,and actions?  Cause my WtF corebook doesn't have jack.

And I'm assuming splitting dice pool no longer works.

WolfMan86:

So do I have to get the WoD Corebook to find the rules on combat, turns,and actions?  Cause my WtF corebook doesn't have jack.

And I'm assuming splitting dice pool no longer works.

You can't play any of the WoD games without the WoD Corebook.

Zeev:

WolfMan86:

Taking away the Garou's ability to deal aggravated damage with his claws is huge in my opinion.  I'm trying to get a copy of the NWOD Rulebook and the VtR Corebook and see how combat and damage works.

And I have yet to read the part where Essences allows me to spend a point and get multiple actions like Rage did. 

Both of these are basically general adjustments to the nWOD baseline.  Dealing aggravate damage is much more difficult in the nWOD (it either takes overloading the target's Health, taking advantage of supernatural weaknesses, or paying XP for magic that does it).  Supernaturals do not innately do Agg anymore, across the board.  Werewolves don't have to worry about enemies that have 12+ soak dice against everything that isn't Agg, and only deal Agg back as it is.  Likewise, multiple actions take XP to get, and are specific.  There is no dice-pool splitting or low-level 'take X extra instant actions this turn' in the nWOD.

If the Uratha had Agg dealing claws naturally, and could spend Essence like Rage for extra actions, they would be brokenly overpowered in the nWOD.

Thank God.  That is such a relief.   So far, I think the WtA storyline is darker and more urgent.  I liked the bad history the Garou had with one another.  It gave it some spice.

But I won't mind transitioning from WtA to WtF.

I'm assuming Rage and Gnosis was replaced by Essence.  Primal Urge reminds me of the Generation stat in VtM.

Christian A:

WolfMan86:

So do I have to get the WoD Corebook to find the rules on combat, turns,and actions?  Cause my WtF corebook doesn't have jack.

And I'm assuming splitting dice pool no longer works.

You can't play any of the WoD games without the WoD Corebook.

Fudge.  That's more money out of my pocket.  I'll get the book.

WolfMan86:

So far, I think the WtA storyline is darker and more urgent.

I'd say the bigger difference is scale.  Forsaken focuses much more an a pack an its territory rather than a global fight to the finish.  The darkness and urgency present in play depends on the people playing.  A looming apocalypse is only urgent if it is really going to happen (obviously it did 'happen' in the oWOD, but that's not a necessity).  The threat of the Pure coming to drag your family away to 'convert' to their way of doing things is only urgent if it is happening or an obvious threat.

WolfMan86:

I liked the bad history the Garou had with one another.  It gave it some spice.

There's a lot of bad history for the Forsaken.

WolfMan86:

I'm assuming Rage and Gnosis was replaced by Essence.  Primal Urge reminds me of the Generation stat in VtM.

Sorta.

All of the nWOD 'major' templates have a power stat.  Primal Urge is the one for WtF.  It basically combines your permanent ratings in Rage and Gnosis into one place, and then Essence replaces temporary dots and it governed by Primal Urge.  Though this is mechanically not thematically for the most part.

This exists for a few reasons:

1)  Less book keeping.  There are less spendable traits to kept track of and worry about.  When you're making up powers, you don't have to decide between Rage or Gnosis, since there is just Essence to spend.
2)  More unified WOD system.  Since all the major supernaturals have a power-stat, there can be the rule that allows power-stats to substitute when resisting powers.  If a vampire uses a power with a dice pool of, "Presence + Intimidation + Hypothetica - Target's Composure - Target's Blood Potency," the werewolf gets to swap Primal Urge for Blood Potency.  It also frees up the 'spiritually in tune' aspect of Gnosis and lets it go to Harmony, giving the Uratha a morality trait.
3)  It makes the werewolves more spirit like mechanically, which emphasizes their half-breed nature.

Zeev:

WolfMan86:

So far, I think the WtA storyline is darker and more urgent.

I'd say the bigger difference is scale.  Forsaken focuses much more an a pack an its territory rather than a global fight to the finish.  The darkness and urgency present in play depends on the people playing.  A looming apocalypse is only urgent if it is really going to happen (obviously it did 'happen' in the oWOD, but that's not a necessity).  The threat of the Pure coming to drag your family away to 'convert' to their way of doing things is only urgent if it is happening or an obvious threat.

WolfMan86:

I liked the bad history the Garou had with one another.  It gave it some spice.

There's a lot of bad history for the Forsaken.

WolfMan86:

I'm assuming Rage and Gnosis was replaced by Essence.  Primal Urge reminds me of the Generation stat in VtM.

Sorta.

All of the nWOD 'major' templates have a power stat.  Primal Urge is the one for WtF.  It basically combines your permanent ratings in Rage and Gnosis into one place, and then Essence replaces temporary dots and it governed by Primal Urge.  Though this is mechanically not thematically for the most part.

This exists for a few reasons:

1)  Less book keeping.  There are less spendable traits to kept track of and worry about.  When you're making up powers, you don't have to decide between Rage or Gnosis, since there is just Essence to spend.
2)  More unified WOD system.  Since all the major supernaturals have a power-stat, there can be the rule that allows power-stats to substitute when resisting powers.  If a vampire uses a power with a dice pool of, "Presence + Intimidation + Hypothetica - Target's Composure - Target's Blood Potency," the werewolf gets to swap Primal Urge for Blood Potency.  It also frees up the 'spiritually in tune' aspect of Gnosis and lets it go to Harmony, giving the Uratha a morality trait.
3)  It makes the werewolves more spirit like mechanically, which emphasizes their half-breed nature.

I just part of the corebook.  Good lord, they have wrapped this game into a nice little package.  I might continue playing OWOD  and just use the NWOD system.  It is so beautiful. 

They did a really good job at balancing this game.  I'll reply again when I'm done making my character.

The Free Man:

Everywhere I go, I here complaints and statements about how much more POWERFUL oWoD werewolves were than the nWoD werewolves. It seems that it's even made some players hate the latter quite a bit.

What I want to know is: What exactly is the difference between the two?  I'd like this answered from both a fluff and mechanics based standpoint if you don't mind. ^_^

IMHO nWoD are less powerful than oWoD werewolves by a mile, and if you ask me they got the shorter stick of the 3 main lines in the nWoD as well.  That all being said, still the best of the 3 if you ask me. 

Mechanically: Old versus new: You don't get to heal as fast, you can't cross in and out of the spirit realm at a whim anymore, you can't deal aggravated damage as a starting character anymore, your war form is less potent, gifts and rites aren't able to hurt your enemies as effectively, etc.  New WtF versus other lines: gifts aren't as straightforwardly potent as some other lines while being close to the same xp cost (leve 3 powers for vampires give you a straight +3 attribute bonus, etc).  Certain clans/tribes/whatnot have focused abilities that work theoretically better than WtF abilities (Spirit Mage spells from MtA, certain vampires with agg damage at lower leves, etc).

Fluffy: The world is a darker and more brutal place, and the WtF werewolves are much from their origin myth to day to day duties.  The themes, moods, and world of WtF fit the new rule set of WtF very very well.  You only get into trouble when you start crossing lines or directly comparing them to old werewolves.  It's hard not to if you've played a lot of WtA, but you have to remember it's a /new and different/ game.

The others on the thread have captured much of the fluff and story focus as well.

Something that I feel is also worth mentioning, is for people that want the power factor added back in to feel good about their games, there are plenty of house rules out there as well as the optional rules form books such as War Against the Pure and Armory: Reloaded.  Those go a long way in making characters feel as potent/savage/powerful as the oWoD werewolves.

Yep, if you're starting with the assumption that Apocalypse is the norm, Forsaken werewolves might feel underpowered.  The way to deal with that is remove the assumption that Apocalypse is the norm.

As others have said, this is a different game with different base-line power levels across the board and a different scale.  It also has different themes than Apocalypse, and the Forsaken fit into the new werewolf themes very, very well.

Understand that Uratha (Forsaken werewolves) are hunters, not warriors (though there is a warrior tribe).  They are not designed to fight big, nasty monsters of corruption like Nexus Crawlers and rip giant, gaping wounds in them.  In fact their main enemies, the spirits, are almost impossible for them to kill directly.  Forsaken are designed to hunt as a pack, to harry their prey, and to slowly weaken their enemies over time.  While they are still indiviudally powerful, they are much more reliant on the pack than Apocalypse werewolves were, and they must use this advantage when combating some other supernatural creatures if they want a true advantage.

Of all the different core splats, Uratha are still the physically most terrible on average.  By this I mean that if you threw all the different character archetypes into a pot, the Uratha would have the biggest physical advantage because even social and mystical Uratha can fight, due to their different forms.  But if you try to build a physically powerful vampire, its going to be able to stand toe-to-toe with a physically powerful werewolf.  Which is why its the pack and its hunting tactics that are key.

Yeled:

Yep, if you're starting with the assumption that Apocalypse is the norm, Forsaken werewolves might feel underpowered.  The way to deal with that is remove the assumption that Apocalypse is the norm.

As others have said, this is a different game with different base-line power levels across the board and a different scale.  It also has different themes than Apocalypse, and the Forsaken fit into the new werewolf themes very, very well.

Understand that Uratha (Forsaken werewolves) are hunters, not warriors (though there is a warrior tribe).  They are not designed to fight big, nasty monsters of corruption like Nexus Crawlers and rip giant, gaping wounds in them.  In fact their main enemies, the spirits, are almost impossible for them to kill directly.  Forsaken are designed to hunt as a pack, to harry their prey, and to slowly weaken their enemies over time.  While they are still indiviudally powerful, they are much more reliant on the pack than Apocalypse werewolves were, and they must use this advantage when combating some other supernatural creatures if they want a true advantage.

Of all the different core splats, Uratha are still the physically most terrible on average.  By this I mean that if you threw all the different character archetypes into a pot, the Uratha would have the biggest physical advantage because even social and mystical Uratha can fight, due to their different forms.  But if you try to build a physically powerful vampire, its going to be able to stand toe-to-toe with a physically powerful werewolf.  Which is why its the pack and its hunting tactics that are key.

Very well put!

Forsaken's also a lot more poorly balanced than Apocalypse... Namely, Spirit Pack and the Warding gift that lets you make technological items cease working in an area are incredible, and on par with Apocalypse, whereas most werewolf powers are drastically weaker. Forsaken's also notable in that their rage and crinos equivalent forms are almost entirely drawbacks.