Tzimice Madness?

Actually they do all go insane. They get derrangements from their Vicissitude dots. Well not old clan tzimisce sa they wouldnt have Vicissitude.....uhm how did my post become the op?

You are on the wrong forum.  The Tzimisce are a Vampire: the MASQUERADE clan - part of the Old World of Darkness (all of which shares a collective forum page).  Vampire: the Requiem is a New World of Darkness game.

I'm only slightly familiar with the Vampire line, through the old PC game VtM: Redemption if nothing else. But what was it that made the tzimice so damn crazy? Is it sort of like what happens to the nosferatu, but rather than becoming horribly ugly, they go horribly insane? Would a perfectly normal person who was embraced by the tzimice still be perfectly normal (aside from the whole vampire thing), or would they just completely lose their shit and adopt the tzimice mindset?

The Free Man:

I'm only slightly familiar with the Vampire line, through the old PC game VtM: Redemption if nothing else. But what was it that made the tzimice so damn crazy? Is it sort of like what happens to the nosferatu, but rather than becoming horribly ugly, they go horribly insane? Would a perfectly normal person who was embraced by the tzimice still be perfectly normal (aside from the whole vampire thing), or would they just completely lose their shit and adopt the tzimice mindset?

It's not that all Tzimisce were inherently insane, but that most of them followed a philosophy that involved transforming their bodies and rejecting their humanity, and thus chose people of similar temperament to embrace.

And this probably should have gone in the Old World of Darkness forum BTW.

Oh. So that's why you don't here a whole lot about tzimice who DON'T want to twist someone inside-out just to see how long they'll live afterwards... And I'm guessing that those few who didn't subscribe to that philosophy were ostracized/looked down upon?

The Free Man:

Oh. So that's why you don't here a whole lot about tzimice who DON'T want to twist someone inside-out just to see how long they'll live afterwards... And I'm guessing that those few who didn't subscribe to that philosophy were ostracized/looked down upon

Actually that's not really fair on the clan. The Tzmisce do discourage humanity in-clan but that isnt to say they're all on the path of humanity. At the same time a lot of them follow more 'normal' ethical paths which approach human comprehension such as the path of honourable accord. The metamophrasists whilst being the largest camp in the clan probably don't make up the clan majority.

In fact in ancient nights the Tzmisce where more a nasty verson of the Ventrue than anything.

If what I've heard/read is correct the connection between Vissicitude and derangements were tied into the soul-eater stuff, which was taken away in Second Edition.

And then yes, as far as I understood it was well, the Tzimisce tend to seek to move beyond the human ways of seeing and doing things, which of course leads into that most humans would consider them to be insane. Although we should not overestimate in what ammount that this actually leads into Paths, as opposed to merely low humanity. VtM Revisited Core for examples states that Tzimisce in the modern nights are as likly to maintain humanity as following a Path.

Gurkhal:

If what I've heard/read is correct the connection between Vissicitude and derangements were tied into the soul-eater stuff, which was taken away in Second Edition.

Actually it was added in 2nd Edition, taken out in Revised then added back in when Guide to the Sabbat came out (though without mentioning the Soul Eaters just saying that the discipline acts like a disease)

It was what I was planning to write, but I my brain must have had a melt down or something. But wasn't the Vissicitude disease rules came as optional in Guide to the Sabbat? Or am I entirly wrong here?

Ruled as Optional but also given heavy metaplotness so that playing it as optional actually made one of Gehenna's endings make no sense.

[Moving to OWOD Forum]

The intent of the "comes with a strong possibility of derangement"-thing, was to help guide the idea that those who advance with Vicissitude often begin to think in ways that are very strange (even by undead standards), and from a game-mechanic view as a balance to the potential of getting an additional discipline on the cheap (as usually the lower factor cost for 1st ED "optional" Vicissitude could be as low as x2, but comensuratley had a higher probability of gaining a derangement).  Personally, I think that was a little heavy handed approach, and it should have been left to a more roleplaying/story-driven aspect.  Too many people either ran wild with it, or bitched and moaned about it.

I liked Vicissitude, and the backstory... a lot of people who disliked it are, of course, entitled to their opinions, but I think it was a case of their "not getting it", or having experienced poorly run stories/games.

Lastly, I don't think the Tzimisce, overall, were any more deranged than most other clans/elders/ancients... excluding the Malkavians, of course, who own that corner of the Monopoly board...

Take what is essentially a human brain.

Isolate it from humanity and then elevate it to a position of control and power. Entitlement, personal riches, influence and dominance.

Let it continue having these things for an extended period of time, longer than a normal human lifespan.

Then add the ability to literally shape the form of those around it.

Human dictators all look a little nuts to those observing their behaviors. Hell, look at the medical... advances... Castro is reported to have made given the complete lack of external control to impose ethical standards on experimentation. Look at the way any absolute ruler throughout history has treated the people living under their rule. Can you name a good totalitarian leader? If you can... here's the tricky part, can you name two in a row- a good one followed by another benevolent type?

The Tzimiscie in the Dark Ages are presented as being absolute rulers. Total control of everything underneath them, as aristocratic as the Ventrue but with the arcane proclivities of the Cappadocians or the Lasombra- searching for some creepy deeper meaning in their insidious studies and foul practices. The presentation doesn't change much when looking at the modern interpretation that's presented for the Masquerade books.

They may not necessarily be any crazier than every other crazy vampire in the game... but the crazy that they are is visible. Visible in a... send Egor down to the graveyard for some fresh brains, make travelers feel at home when their carriage breaks down during the sudden thunderstorm, have a basement door labeled "Laboratory, keep out!", accidently let the monster out of it's cage to rampage through the countryside, suppress the uprising of the local peasantry through control of the burghers... kind of way. It's a very classic literature kind of crazy that's easy to spot.

ALL Vampires go insane given time. The Tzimisce don't automatically gain derangements over the course of their unlife. However, the general nature of the Clan does make it more likely. As a Sabbat Clan, and one that generally embraces Paths of Enlightenment, they are likely to accrue quite a few derangements over time. And their typical backgrounds (mad scientists, seekers of forbidden lore) and interests ("exerpimentation") don't help things.

But nothing about the Clan or Vicissitude makes them insane... unless you buy into that whole Soul Eater crap.

Koldunic Sorcery might help though. Summoning demons from Slavic mythology isn't good for your sanity.

The REAL reason for Tzimisce 'insanity' has to do with flavor. Tzimisce are the REAL vampires out of folklore... fucking dracula. They represent these centuries old anachronisms ruling over terrified peasants in the Balkans and Transylvania, horrible monsters that haunt the night of Eastern Europe. They are the Gothic horrors out of literature and film, your stereotypical boogeymen and monster movie villians. They are 'mad' in the same sense that those stock characters from fiction are.

One system that Dark Ages introduced that I actually found to be a good idea was the concept that derangements were tied into development of higher level Discipline powers. It made for the elders being even more crazy, paranoid and out-of-touch than usual. Just something to bring up if you want to reflect that alienness of the Tzimisce. Have some sort of system for derangements tied in with Vicissitude use and high level powers.